Sir Van Talvin
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The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 4, 2005 15:47:19 GMT -5
Since most of the Arena is already about politics, I thought it would be good idea to have a thread dealing only with religion. I'm sure that's what SethFWF intended, but his "Religion vs. Politics" didn't quite seem to get any traction. So here's to another fresh start.....
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BenMech
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The One You Warned Me Of
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Post by BenMech on Feb 4, 2005 18:15:37 GMT -5
what do you want to know?
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 4, 2005 18:34:46 GMT -5
I have very strong religious beliefs, but of course I'd rather not discuss them in detail here. Regardless, I respect everyone else's beliefs even if I don't agree. My biggest problem is any use of religion in gov't and any politicians beliefs dictating policy.
What Bush does in his second term remains to be seen and I'm done berating him for his prior decisons. I'm taking a wait and see attitude with him, maybe he won't blow it...maybe he will.
My biggest concern right now is the door being opened and the religious right firmly shoving their foot into gov't business. We may not see significant changes in the very near future, but as organized religion gets stronger(or gets a stronger voice), there's going to be a problem IMO. We can already see quite a few politicians creeping in with their ideologies dictating to them what laws should and shouldn't be made...what freedoms we should continue to enjoy and which ones we should not(regardless of the constitution).
If a precedent is set, it could become a huge problem in the future if it's not nipped in the bud now. This country, regardless of how some may feel is not beyond reproach and is not invincible....do you think religion allowed to run wild can't destroy this great country?
Seth
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 5, 2005 7:03:11 GMT -5
what do you want to know? ....said the 10-year-old to his old man when he said, "Son, we need to talk about sex."
OK, seriously now, I was thinking of marvthemailman's questions from the other thread which I will post here:I pose a question--if money is the root of all evil, why are all the religions begging for it?
another question--do you believe in God? and do you believe in Aliens? and have you seen either one? I'm curious to see how other people answer this/these question(s) before I add my $.02 worth.
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 5, 2005 10:30:37 GMT -5
Religion begging for money will get many varied responses and opinions. On the surface of course it would appear that they are non-profit, they don't charge an actual membership fee and therefore need donations to maintain their elaborate, beautiful cathedrals and so forth. Of course there are those that do require some fee or portion of a persons income. But overall it's reasonable to assume that they require donations to exist. Below the surface is a different story. I'm of the opinion that organized religion is extremely corrupt, yes a generalization...but true in many cases. We've seen quite a bit of scandal in the last 20 years with the evangalists, and among the pedaphile community within the mainstream chuches. As far as money and the fact that is considered the root of all evil, organized religion still falls prey no matter how much of a holy face they put on to the imperfect, greedy, and corrupt human condition. Therefore, IMO they beg for money and much of it goes to exactly what it shouldn't...be it individual bank accounts, political sources that they should not be at all involved in, and many more un-religious entities that non-jaded people refuse to recognize. In other words, those that send the money thinking that their favorite pastor or evangalist is truly sent from God and can heal and/or save their souls. As far as the existance of God, I absolutely believe. IMO, you need not look farther than the miracle of the human body and the brilliance of nature to realize that we didn't come about by chance. When it comes to aliens, who knows? There is a difference even though we can't see either. It's hard to imagine this un-ending universe with absolutely no life other than this sand grain sized planet. But who can second guess God, providing you believe in him? Let the duel begin... Seth
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 5, 2005 12:39:58 GMT -5
Here's one article regarding the war and religion topic: atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_index.htmOf course like anything you can read, doesn't mean it's fact...but some of these statements are agreed upon by many historians. Here's a snippet: "It would perhaps be unacceptable in some circles to point out the fact that in many European countries, religion plays an even smaller role in people's lives than it does in America - yet levels of violence are lower than here. Were a lack of religion any sort of cause of violence, then we would find higher amounts of violence in countries like Germany rather than Ireland, where both religion and violence have been prominent in daily life.
Facts like this must lead any rational person to treat claim of religion as a solution to our ills - real or perceived - with real skepticism. Religion has in fact done even more to promote base inhumanity when it has become wedded to ruling political powers. It has been a common pattern throughout human history that wherever religious dogmas have gained worldly power, violence was abetted rather than stopped. Even if a person were to successfully argue that none of the violence was caused by religion, the fact would remain that religion not only failed to stop it, but has actually served as a useful tool for those perpetuating it.
Is Christianity only a religion of Peace and Love? I do not think that anyone can honestly and objectively examine American or European history and answer "yes" to that question. Christianity can encourage Peace and Love - but it certainly need not, and it quite often has done just the opposite. Although the people responsible for violence might have found a way to express their hatred without Christianity, it cannot be ignored that Christianity offers a convenient divine mandate for hatred and violent acts against a wide range of people."
[/color] There are quite a few links regarding other religious conflicts on that page. I'll look for more stuff from specific historians. Seth
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 5, 2005 13:07:35 GMT -5
Here's a good rebuttal and relates somewhat to the fact that the above link was from an atheist group... net-burst.net/hot/war.htmHere's my challenge....is atheism not a religion in itself? And isn't the intolerance of religion to the extreme that those fine folks went a root cause of their killing, thereby still religious caused wars and death? Seth
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 5, 2005 13:25:49 GMT -5
Here's a good one regarding Islam, lots of links to more articles: biblia.com/islam/islam.htmThe "A Brief Chronology of Muslim History" section has a couple links with timelines of wars up through modern day. Not getting a lot of actual stats on deaths...will keep looking later... Seth
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 5, 2005 17:16:02 GMT -5
Here's one article regarding the war and religion topic: atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_index.htmOf course like anything you can read, doesn't mean it's fact...but some of these statements are agreed upon by many historians. Here's a snippet: "It would perhaps be unacceptable in some circles to point out the fact that in many European countries, religion plays an even smaller role in people's lives than it does in America - yet levels of violence are lower than here. Were a lack of religion any sort of cause of violence, then we would find higher amounts of violence in countries like Germany rather than Ireland, where both religion and violence have been prominent in daily life.
Facts like this must lead any rational person to treat claim of religion as a solution to our ills - real or perceived - with real skepticism. Religion has in fact done even more to promote base inhumanity when it has become wedded to ruling political powers. It has been a common pattern throughout human history that wherever religious dogmas have gained worldly power, violence was abetted rather than stopped. Even if a person were to successfully argue that none of the violence was caused by religion, the fact would remain that religion not only failed to stop it, but has actually served as a useful tool for those perpetuating it.
Is Christianity only a religion of Peace and Love? I do not think that anyone can honestly and objectively examine American or European history and answer "yes" to that question. Christianity can encourage Peace and Love - but it certainly need not, and it quite often has done just the opposite. Although the people responsible for violence might have found a way to express their hatred without Christianity, it cannot be ignored that Christianity offers a convenient divine mandate for hatred and violent acts against a wide range of people."
[/color] There are quite a few links regarding other religious conflicts on that page. I'll look for more stuff from specific historians. Seth [/quote] I, for one, take issue with the atheistic "holier-than-thou" attitude. If you think about it, that attitude is actually self-contradictory for atheists because the logical thread of atheism leads to moral relativism and ultimately ends in nihilism. Therefore, if there is no right or wrong (and nothing really matters), then what difference should it make to the atheist whether people live or die, suffer or not suffer? Nothing really matters so who cares or why should anyone care what happens or doesn't happen? Kill me or don't kill me, so what? Have wars or peace, why should one or the other concern the atheist? All religions have some sort of moral code which descends from a belief in a "higher power(s)". All the laws in the world are derived from moral codes, so any sense of "justice" is also derived from a belief in a "higher power(s)". The point in bringing this up is to highlight the hypocrisy of atheists believing in justice and fairness. Atheists have to--although many don't--take their atheism to its logical end (which is nihilism), and by doing that they have to realize that justice and fairness really don't matter. So the dilemma that atheists face, once again, is that nihilism is logically inescapable as a conclusion. This is the one thing that I feel that I can always--ALWAYS--nail atheists on. So I challenge any atheist to find a logical escape from nihilism. The duel shall indeed begin.
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 5, 2005 17:50:22 GMT -5
I'm sure you read my other posts and maybe the links, so you understand that I'm not an atheist and agree completely with your assessment. That first link was interesting, but not meant to prove anything either way...but it did lead to the next post which asked if atheism is indeed a religion(and nihilism as well) that could well lead to hatred, violence and war. Of course it could and does, but does it fit in the religious scheme of things?
Seth
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 6, 2005 7:57:55 GMT -5
You mean this one?I have very strong religious beliefs Or this one?[quote author=SethFWF link=board=politics&thread=1107550039&start=4#0 date=1107617437]As far as the existance of God, I absolutely believe.[/quote] No, my friend, I did not misunderstand. I'm afraid it was you who misunderstood. I kept referring to atheists in the 3rd person in an attempt to distinguish my objection as being directed at what you quoted and not specifically at you or your beliefs. I see now that I should have been more clarified in my approach.
I have quite a lot on my mind right now that I would looooove to post, but I prefer to wait and see if others will chime in (preferably atheists).
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SethFWF
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"Rattle your God damn head!"
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 6, 2005 10:53:25 GMT -5
No, you were clear enough...but just wanted to make sure. The atheist site isn't anything I would give credence to myself...but the statements referring to gov't were worth posting IMO.
Not sure if you'll get any atheist response here, don't know Marvs actual stand or if he'll be interested in getting involved too much.
There was a guy on the old board named Lee the Liberatarian who would likely enjoy this thread. Haven't seen him since the board change though.
Seth
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 6, 2005 23:06:12 GMT -5
So far the only ones who "dare" are you and me, my friend. Personally, I think the atheists are a little bit scared . Or perhaps they really did latch onto nihilism and subsequently realized the futility of existence and just....well, you know.... ....hehehehe...oh, I slay me Seriously, though, I am a bit eager to see some opposing (read: atheist) P.O.V.'s. So c'mon in, y'all , the water's just fine!
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 7, 2005 7:00:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I really can't imagine what the point of any of this would be if that philosophy proved true. Just don't know if too many here will want to get into a religious discussion...it wasn't all that popular on the old board unless it related directly to politics. Guess we'll see... Seth
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Fox
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Post by Fox on Feb 7, 2005 11:09:09 GMT -5
My biggest problem is any use of religion in gov't and any politicians beliefs dictating policy. Huh? better vote for robots then. Beliefs make the man, you vote for the man. Of course I'm not a proponent of state sponsored religion, or stupid laws. (many of which may or may not be related to religion) But all laws are secular (even if inspired by religion) if they pass by the proper means. If Bush introduces laws based on his Christian beliefs and the congress approves them, its quite a bit different than Bush making the government an extention of christianity.
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