Fox
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Post by Fox on Feb 7, 2005 11:18:47 GMT -5
I pose a question--if money is the root of all evil, why are all the religions begging for it?
Actually, its the love of money that's the root of all evil, not money itself. Money is merely a necessary tool in todays society. Churches need donations to survive, I don't consider reminding people of that fact to be 'begging'.
another question--do you believe in God? and do you believe in Aliens? and have you seen either one?
yes, not really and no. But I've experienced God. I doubt the existence of Aliens, but it would be foolish of me to be adamant about their non-existence.
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Sir Van Talvin
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The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 7, 2005 12:18:09 GMT -5
Thank you, Mr. Fox! Oh, how I waited for somebody to find that little nugget about the love of money being the root of all evil! Excellent, my friend! I-I-I-I-I wo-o-o-o-o-o-on't so-lil-i-quize....With all due respect to Ray Alder, I want so much to soliliquize--and in living color at that! I have already stated before that atheists must find nihilism as an inescapable conclusion. With that as a basis (again, which I find undeniable), there descends a whole host of questions, problems, and dilemmas which are quite disturbing for atheists. They are quite fond of asking theists the "difficult" questions, but I like turning the tables on them.
Here's an example: how can atheists say there is no "higher power", or pantheon of "higher powers", if no one has ever been able to scrutinize every cubic nanometer of the universe? Absent such thorough scientific scrutiny, how can anyone disprove the existence of any such "higher power", or pantheon of "higher powers"? The objection I anticipate is, "Aha! But neither can you prove the existence of a God or gods!" And I would say, "Exactly!", because my point is to show that atheism is an act of faith--just like any other religion.
I could go on, but time won't let me.
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Post by Gonzalo el Silenciado on Feb 7, 2005 18:02:24 GMT -5
I prefer to wait and see if others will chime in (preferably atheists). Ain't gonna come from me. I don't push atheism onto others. And I expect the same decency from others. That's it.
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 7, 2005 19:22:48 GMT -5
Huh? better vote for robots then. Beliefs make the man, you vote for the man. Of course I'm not a proponent of state sponsored religion, or stupid laws. (many of which may or may not be related to religion) But all laws are secular (even if inspired by religion) if they pass by the proper means. If Bush introduces laws based on his Christian beliefs and the congress approves them, its quite a bit different than Bush making the government an extention of christianity. I agree to a point, but where do you draw the line? I've heard from his own mouth that he relies on Jesus to help make the correct decisions for the country. It was on a PBS special some time ago, and they had several similar quotes and clips from when he was governer. But I did say I'm taking a wait and see approach to Bush in this next term. I'm more concerned at this point with the religious right getting a bigger voice in gov't, more super-conservative senators and judges getting elected or appointed...and the push for more of our freedoms to be limited or squashed. I realize we're not Nazi Germany and won't lean that way any time soon...but do you even give the gov't a little room at all to mess with or change the constitution? Give 'em an inch and they'll take many miles...there wouldn't be such division in this country if there wasn't a legitimate concern about our freedoms and the religious push that's beginning in the gov't. Seth
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 7, 2005 19:30:09 GMT -5
I pose a question--if money is the root of all evil, why are all the religions begging for it?Actually, its the love of money that's the root of all evil, not money itself. Money is merely a necessary tool in todays society. Churches need donations to survive, I don't consider reminding people of that fact to be 'begging'. another question--do you believe in God? and do you believe in Aliens? and have you seen either one?yes, not really and no. But I've experienced God. I doubt the existence of Aliens, but it would be foolish of me to be adamant about their non-existence. Money is a necessary evil...whether it's the love of it or the fact that it rules the world and the greedy human condition makes it evil. Doesn't seem to make much difference to me, and it'll never change. Seth
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Post by marvthemailman on Feb 7, 2005 19:38:21 GMT -5
here's my stances on religion , remember when you were a child and maybe you had a imaginary friend or talked to your teddy bear for comfort? That's what God is - a grown ups imaginary friend, a crutch.
If you believe in God then you must also believe in aliens, just because you have never seen either one, they and He could exist?.When I see either one then I will believe.
I'm a undecided voter, I'll make my mind up a the polling place. I try to lead a good life and treat everyone with respect and be honest etc. If there is a God, I'm pretty sure He'll accept me.
Just so you know I was raised as a good catholic boy but left when I was around 16 and could see what a crock it all was. Have any of you read The Da Vinci Code?
That's all I've got to say about religion. I will not respond to any more topics about relgion or politics, I just what to talk about METAL!!!
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 7, 2005 19:56:27 GMT -5
Understood Brotha... Seth
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 7, 2005 20:03:27 GMT -5
There's also the evolution subject, goes with atheism to a degree. Too tired to read or post anymore tonight though... Seth
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BenMech
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The One You Warned Me Of
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Post by BenMech on Feb 7, 2005 21:16:45 GMT -5
I have nothing to add, and it seems, nor does anybody actually posting blather in this thread.
With that said: the sooner that the denominations of all the protestant forks and the RCC collapse and vanish, then humanity will be better served.
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 8, 2005 7:06:20 GMT -5
I don't think it's blather unless it's completely uninteresting to you. Just hasn't developed into a full discussion yet.
I agree on your second point and believe that will be the case in the future. Religion will stick it's nose to far into everything and the world powers will cut it off. We're in a war right now that's based on religion whether anyone wants to admit it or not. I think it will turn very ugly over time and and the world gov'ts will have enough of it eventually.
Seth
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Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
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Post by Fox on Feb 8, 2005 10:05:53 GMT -5
Have any of you read The Da Vinci Code? I would repsond to your entire post, but the irony in that statement coming from someone who thinks the Bible is a work a fiction causes my brain to hurt, so I can't.
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Shark Black
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AKA Raiderblack
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Post by Shark Black on Feb 8, 2005 10:50:02 GMT -5
Thank you, Mr. Fox! Oh, how I waited for somebody to find that little nugget about the love of money being the root of all evil! Excellent, my friend! I-I-I-I-I wo-o-o-o-o-o-on't so-lil-i-quize....With all due respect to Ray Alder, I want so much to soliliquize--and in living color at that! I have already stated before that atheists must find nihilism as an inescapable conclusion. With that as a basis (again, which I find undeniable), there descends a whole host of questions, problems, and dilemmas which are quite disturbing for atheists. They are quite fond of asking theists the "difficult" questions, but I like turning the tables on them.
Here's an example: how can atheists say there is no "higher power", or pantheon of "higher powers", if no one has ever been able to scrutinize every cubic nanometer of the universe? Absent such thorough scientific scrutiny, how can anyone disprove the existence of any such "higher power", or pantheon of "higher powers"? The objection I anticipate is, "Aha! But neither can you prove the existence of a God or gods!" And I would say, "Exactly!", because my point is to show that atheism is an act of faith--just like any other religion.
I could go on, but time won't let me. Great point, Thats why I'm just a humble agnostic. Although I lean towards atheism, I'll never know for sure, and that's OK. I hold strong beliefs in conduct and character that serve the purpose of a better existence for mandkind, not neccessarily in fear of God. Of course we all fall short, but we're only human and we all make mistakes, some more than others. The power of love is real, that's the one thing I know. We all want it, we all need it. And an absence of it is when it all falls apart. ;D
: ISIS: The Beginning And The End
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 8, 2005 18:57:19 GMT -5
And I would say, "Exactly!", because my point is to show that atheism is an act of faith--just like any other religion. color] So if you believe that atheism is and act of faith, do you also believe that it is in itself a religion and to a degree levels this profs statement?: net-burst.net/hot/war.htmJust wondering... Seth
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 8, 2005 21:44:53 GMT -5
Before addressing your question I feel I need to clarify something. More often than not, atheists use the words "religion" and "Christianity" interchangeably. It is evident when an atheist has some sort of criticism leveled at "organized religion" that it's often Christianity in his crosshairs. But religion is nothing more than a system of beliefs centered around a core belief--and a core belief need not be restricted to a faith in God. Since I've already pointed out that atheism is an act of faith--a core belief in no higher powers--then, as an answer to the first part of your question, yes, it is a religion.
The second part of your question is what troubles me. It implies (or, I infer) that you still suscribe to the notion that religion is the cause for most of the wars and killings in history. I don't know if you caught the gist of it, but net-burst.net has pointed out that the true cause of wars, violence, suffering, etc. lies within human nature. Greed, selfishness, and pride lend themselves to envy, hatred, and maliciousness which in turn lead to the actions that cause others to suffer. The role that religion plays is in the way that the perpetrators of suffering twist their beliefs systems in order to justify their actions.
Now to really answer the second part of your question: no, the professor views are not at odds with mine. What net-burst.net has done is to debunk the charge from atheists that religion is the cause for most of the wars and suffering throughout human history. The professor's email merely served as a countercharge to the notion of religion (i.e., Christianity) causing the most suffering and death. Let's not forget that the typical atheist denies that atheism is a religion, and that the professor's countercharge tacitly acknowledges this denial all the while not attempting to debunk it (as I have done).
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 9, 2005 7:04:20 GMT -5
the true cause of wars, violence, suffering, etc. lies within human nature. Greed, selfishness, and pride lend themselves to envy, hatred, and maliciousness which in turn lead to the actions that cause others to suffer. While I agree with this statement, I do still subscribe to the theory that religion has been the single biggest contributing factor. I can't provide hard evidence and I'm not absolute about it, but I feel strongly about it and will enjoy doing more research to try and justify it. The way I look at it, organized religion is capable and has promoted all of those factors you mentioned...making them somewhat a by-product that has led to war. And of course the disdain or hatred of religion and refusal to let others believe what they want and worship how they want has also bred many of those human traits...and in turn led to war. But I also get what you're saying about religion being the justification after the fact. Could be a chicken and egg problem... It's likely one of those debates without a clear answer or winner. Seth
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