Fox
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Post by Fox on Mar 16, 2005 8:53:16 GMT -5
Probably not the answer you want, but:
No God: who cares, if we are just just a random occurence, then we'll just naturally select ourselves out of the equation, even if we don't the sun eventually will, but I have a feel nature will get to us first.
With God: who cares, God is in control, he already gave the world unto satan, and will create a new one, after he destorys this one.
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Post by ProgRocker on Mar 16, 2005 12:24:00 GMT -5
Seth: So I feel without God, we have little to no chance of bettering the planet and ourselves to the point of turning things around for good.
That may or may not be true, but it's not a reason to believe or disbelieve in anything. The only valid reason to believe in God is to prove that he exists. Fox: No God: who cares, if we are just just a random occurence, then we'll just naturally select ourselves out of the equation, even if we don't the sun eventually will, but I have a feel nature will get to us first.
I dont understand this disdain for all things random. There's nothing wrong with randomness, it's a part of life. Furthermore, it's only random in the sense that each step of microevolution is quite random. The end result is not random, it's quite inevitable. It's like flipping coins... if I flip a coin once, the result is random. If I flip it 1000000000 times, I will inevitably get about 50% of each outcome. With God: who cares, God is in control, he already gave the world unto satan, and will create a new one, after he destorys this one.
Do you seriously feel that way? I thought your God was a nice guy, who would save the good at all costs? That seems like a very bleak outlook on life. I dont believe in God, afterlife, or "the goodness of people", but at least I believe in the intelligence of the few , and I have the hope that we will truly understand the universe some day. Seems to me you should convert to atheism if you want hope
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Mar 16, 2005 18:16:24 GMT -5
Andre..."That may or may not be true, but it's not a reason to believe or disbelieve in anything. The only valid reason to believe in God is to prove that he exists."
While I can't "prove" that God exists, I have faith that he does to the point where I can say that if not for his intervention...the planet and human race is screwed at some point. You can easily say that also based on your sun theory, but I mean sooner than that. So I do believe in that, and disbelieve that there is no God and we're left to our own devices. But we'll get into the atheism debate again with this, which is fine but for now...
Fox..."No God: who cares, if we are just just a random occurence, then we'll just naturally select ourselves out of the equation, even if we don't the sun eventually will, but I have a feel nature will get to us first."
I agree "who cares" to a point, but that leads to such a bleak outlook on our current and future circumstances. To be honest, if I didn't believe in God...I would see no point in any of this. I would continue to live for my family, but I think before I ever got to this point in my life I would have ended it. Unfortunately life is far more distressing, depressing and negative than the opposite. At least for me, but as we all get older there are more unhappy times with loved ones dying, and increasing health problems than there are happy times. So with the no God scenario, there's also no after-life or any hope for anything better than this.
"With God: who cares, God is in control, he already gave the world unto satan, and will create a new one, after he destorys this one."
Your "with God" opinion is pretty vague, but I see that you believe that Satan is and has been in control of the earth for centuries. The vague part is the creating of the new world after he destroys this one. I wonder if you mean the creating of a new system on earth and the destruction of the current man and Satan run one? That would lead me to my "with God" opinion and scenario which I need to work on.
As far as your rebutt to his statement Andre, I think that's where the difference lies. Assuming his God is at least similar to the God I believe in, I wouldn't say that his is a bleak outlook, but more an understanding that God is going to do what he's going to do regardless. Of course we can still speculate, but there's certainly nothing we can do. A new system and structure on earth that is God run isn't bleak to me, again assuming that's what Fox was saying. Without that faith, for me...we go back to the beginning of the post, an absolutely pointless existence IMO.
Seth
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Post by ProgRocker on Mar 17, 2005 8:17:39 GMT -5
To be honest, if I didn't believe in God...I would see no point in any of this. I would continue to live for my family, but I think before I ever got to this point in my life I would have ended it. This goes to support my theory of why most people need religion: to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own lives. It's out of my hands now, let's hope God does something nice for me. But if something bad happens, it's just God's plan, it's not my responsibility to prevent it. Ayn Rand actually made a similar observation in "The virtue of selfishness". She said that both communism and religion are collectivist philosophies, because their main objective is to absolve the individual of responsibility for their own life. In communism, people rely on the government to solve all their problems. In religion, people rely on God.
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Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
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Post by Fox on Mar 17, 2005 9:26:02 GMT -5
John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (Jesus speaking that Satan is in fact ruler of this world, just for reference)
Revelation 21:1 "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
So with that in mind 2 things:
I do not despise randomness, I rather enjoy it, however randomness is purposeless (after all, if it had a purpose it would not be random). If your life is purposeless it is meaningless. If you choose to delude yourself into thinking its something more, that's ok (you might as well), but the reality is there's no right or wrong or purpose or meaning to it. Make of it what you will.
So bearing that, believing in God, enables me to live with purpose, and thus hope. God will bring it all to an end when he sees fit and reign justice upon the earth, and create a new and perfect world.
In the meantime, I just recognize that the current planet is ruled by Satan, but ultimately God is in control.
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Post by ProgRocker on Mar 17, 2005 9:37:00 GMT -5
So bearing that, believing in God, enables me to live with purpose, and thus hope. No it doesn't. It enables you to live with FAKE purpose. The purpose is real if and only if God actually exists, which is yet to be proven. What you are doing is no different from me making up my own purpose. But at least I'm honest with myself about it.
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Fox
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Post by Fox on Mar 17, 2005 10:36:23 GMT -5
No it doesn't. It enables you to live with FAKE purpose. The purpose is real if and only if God actually exists, which is yet to be proven. What you are doing is no different from me making up my own purpose. But at least I'm honest with myself about it. yes the purpose is real if and only if God does exist, but I would be dishonest with myself if I felt he didn't exist at this point. Incidentally, the reason to believe in something isn't to prove its true, but quite the inverse. You believe in something because of some amount of evidence, therefore you believe it to be true.
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Mar 17, 2005 17:52:33 GMT -5
This goes to support my theory of why most people need religion: to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own lives. It's out of my hands now, let's hope God does something nice for me. But if something bad happens, it's just God's plan, it's not my responsibility to prevent it. Ayn Rand actually made a similar observation in "The virtue of selfishness". She said that both communism and religion are collectivist philosophies, because their main objective is to absolve the individual of responsibility for their own life. In communism, people rely on the government to solve all their problems. In religion, people rely on God. That's absolutely not true in my case and is not the point I was making. It works both ways Andre...first in my case, my point is if there were no hope for anything beyond this short and imperfect life...I would see no point in it. Being brought up religiously and doing a great amount of study throughout my youth has given me faith that this life is worth living in order to achieve something better through God. I certainly don't need religion to absolve myself of responsibility for my life. Quite the opposite, I've allowed myself to take responsibility for my life and continue to live because I have faith. So if I turn it around, I'd like to try and understand better your stand. You've said before that you believe in mankind's ability to learn how to better ourselves through science...fully understanding the brain, and possibly achieving space travel at some point to avoid the invevitable downfall of the earth. There's no reason not to believe those things are possible, but there's no chance IMO that we can cure/prevent death. With that in mind, if there's no God or afterlife then you, your current family, and most likely your children and grand children will never see these wonderful acheivements or benefit from them. So while we as a human race can have some purpose now by progressing with science, it still will not benefit you in any way...so what exactly is the point of your existence? That's my point about if there were no God, no purpose...then life in general is purposeless. Seth
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Mar 17, 2005 18:04:28 GMT -5
John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (Jesus speaking that Satan is in fact ruler of this world, just for reference) Revelation 21:1 "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."So with that in mind 2 things: I do not despise randomness, I rather enjoy it, however randomness is purposeless (after all, if it had a purpose it would not be random). If your life is purposeless it is meaningless. If you choose to delude yourself into thinking its something more, that's ok (you might as well), but the reality is there's no right or wrong or purpose or meaning to it. Make of it what you will. So bearing that, believing in God, enables me to live with purpose, and thus hope. God will bring it all to an end when he sees fit and reign justice upon the earth, and create a new and perfect world. In the meantime, I just recognize that the current planet is ruled by Satan, but ultimately God is in control. We're definitely on the same page up to this point anyway. We likely have different religious backgrounds, but you make the same points about meaning to life and having a purpose and hope for something better. Without it, why bother? I know that sounds very negative, but this is a philisophical discussion for the most part...and when you get right down to things, you get right down to the bottom line. If I may go a bit further with your beliefs(don't answer if you don't want to divulge that much), do you agree that a new system on earth under God means that humans were meant to live on this planet in perfection and that is Gods ultimate plan? And that brings up questions obviously about what exactly happens when we die, heaven...hell and so on. That's still in line with the original discussion of the future of the planet physically as well as the human race. Seth
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Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
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Post by Fox on Mar 18, 2005 8:56:59 GMT -5
I would agree that the 'new earth' would be what God's original plan was.
The object of free will and time though allows those who wish not to be included, to not be included.
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Post by SonicCathedral on Mar 18, 2005 14:07:43 GMT -5
All of the answers to all of the questions are in The Book. I hope that all of my Christrian bretheren are having a great Lenten season. -Peace. RBH
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SethFWF
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Post by SethFWF on Mar 23, 2005 20:09:58 GMT -5
Without getting really specific about my religious background/affiliation, I have strong feelings about where we as a race and planet are heading. Much is based on bible research and current events that I believe are fulfilling the prophecies in Revelations. Of course Revelations is open to many interpretations, and all religions seem to have their own ideas of what was meant.
The end all will be Armageddon at which point God will eliminate the system of the current world lorded over by Satan and left to imperfect humans. At which point a new system under God will take over and slowly bring the planet and humankind back to the original perfect state they were intended. How we got to this state is another topic, but how we'll progress to this scenario is important and current.
I'm not breaking out my bible right now, so I'll give my opinions on how I've come to believe this progression to be and use chapter and verse later if needed. Revelations used much imagery and symbolism to describe the last days of this system. Going by strictly memory right now, "Babylon the Great" is used to descibe the current "World Empire of False Religion" which is one of the most important and influential entities in the days leading to the end. I still maintain that religion has caused more conflict and death than any other single factor in history, and currently you need only watch the news to see how it's constantly doing the same. This will continue to get worse, and is already leading up to a global conflict. War on terror, Muslim/Jew, Western Christian/Catholic infidels, holy wars...etc. At the same time, religion will still gain more popularity in the gov'ts of the world as a means to solve their problems and conflicts. An absolute irony if ever there were one. So imperfect man run gov'ts aligning more with religion will bring about what's referred to as "The Great Tribulation", the most trying time in human history on a global scale. At some point in Gods timeline, the gov'ts of man will finally realize that religion is the root cause of this and will turn on it...finally saying enough is enough...we don't want religion anymore...we're going to run this world without it. Of course this will also be part of "The Great Tribulation" since it will cause mass problems, but at some point man will declare victory over religion caused strife and war...exclaiming that they have in fact achieved "peace and security" on earth. This is when God says he will reign down justice on this world...what happens to us individually is open again to many opinions..ultimately it's Gods justice, so he decides. My beliefs say that he will give us(humankind) in time a perfect planet and we will live in perfection forever on the earth as was originally intended. Of course the "resurrection" comes into play as well.
Many other "signs" were given by Jesus and the Apostle Paul as to the "last days" of this system. Jesus spoke of the increase in earthquakes which I speculate to mean other natural disasters as well. Of course we've always had those, hard to say if there's been a huge increase although weather in general seems to be getting crazier all the time. Paul speaks of the increasing loss of "natural affection" among humans, the loss of love in general for our families and humankind. I expect many arguements from the eternal optimists about how human nature isn't so bad and might even be getting better. And that mass media coverage is giving us more bad news than ever before but the bad things happening are the same amount and intensity as before. You really have to look at the world as a whole and the horrific conditions as well as the deteriorating condition of the human spirit and mental condition to see how much worse it's getting.
There's much more as far as what the bible points out to be the signs of the last days and what the future of the planet and human race will be. I would like to hear other interpretations, not to negate...but just discuss.
Seth
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Post by ProgRocker on Mar 24, 2005 8:23:46 GMT -5
Seth,
you should see Penn&Teller's "Bullshit" episode on "The end of the world". It's really funny.
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Mar 24, 2005 18:23:22 GMT -5
I saw your other post about the show, but haven't seen it yet. Just forget to look for it.
Seth
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