Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 28, 2005 10:45:32 GMT -5
Overseas Iraqis began voting. In Australia, exiles danced in the streets, ;D proudly displaying blue ink on their fingers which showed they had cast the election's first votes. "When I look at the ink on my finger -- this is a mark of freedom," said Kassim Abood, outside a polling booth in a disused furniture warehouse in western Sydney. "I didn't think I would live long enough to see this moment." OK you guys can begin to stomp on the their hopes and dreams now...
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Jan 28, 2005 11:51:41 GMT -5
I don't want to stomp on their hopes, I think it's great that oppressed people can finally have a chance at freedom. I do remain pessemistic though that forced democracy and freedom can work long term, especially in such a volatile environment and surrounded by countries who don't and won't accept it.
While I still don't agree with the way the Bush admin went about it, if it does work...that's great. I think it will be years before we see the full outcome of this action though.
One thing that I think realistic people agree with and those who would like to be realistic but maybe are afraid is that this world isn't getting better. Obviously the envinronment will continue to decline, but worse is human nature. As soon as a major world power begins to force it's way of life/gov't on others, the tension will mount consideralby. IMO, we've unfortunately entered a time in history when huge changes will take place simply because we can't go on worldwide the way we are. Call me a calamity hollerer, but this little war we're in will surely escalate in time and it won't be pretty.
At the same time, I also believe that it's all inevitable...Bush is likely just a tool. If not him, someone else with a different agenda but same outcome.
Good luck to the peaceful Iraqi people. I hope there are not too many more American or otherwise lives lost during this election.
Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 28, 2005 15:42:50 GMT -5
I cappatalized the first words of my response so you could find them,, I'm not yelling I don't want to stomp on their hopes, I think it's great that oppressed people can finally have a chance at freedom. I do remain pessemistic though that forced democracy and freedom can work long term, especially in such a volatile environment and surrounded by countries who don't and won't accept it. KIND of like Japan and Germany. History has tought us that the power of fredom is strong. It has the power of the people. People want to be free. While I still don't agree with the way the Bush admin went about it, if it does work...that's great. I think it will be years before we see the full outcome of this action though. THIS is a work of generations. I for one thought the The US played it right. If not now when. One thing that I think realistic people agree with and those who would like to be realistic but maybe are afraid is that this world isn't getting better. Obviously the envinronment will continue to decline, but worse is human nature. YOU always bring up this thing called human nature as some evil curse that is doomed to destroy humanity. Well some of us realistic people have an optimistic view of human nature. When you limit the power that corrupts absolutely like most democracies have it can and does work. Democracies don't fight each other. As soon as a major world power begins to force it's way of life/gov't on others, the tension will mount consideralby. Well I hope so. Those who are truely evil like the likes of Saddam Hussein and Zarqawi and Bin Laden should be feeling really tense right now. Well see how the turnout is in Iraq to see if they want it or not. There is a difference between forcing ones will on someone or giving them there own voice, their own will. IMO, we've unfortunately entered a time in history when huge changes will take place simply because we can't go on worldwide the way we are. Call me a calamity hollerer, but this little war we're in will surely escalate in time and it won't be pretty. We've been spending our recent history watching this thing build up. 1972 Olympic kidnap and murder, The taking of our embassy in Iran etc. And in the recent decades the buildup of Al Qaeda and the Taliban and finally the Trade Towers. If that doesn't signal that it was time to do something about it, I don't know what it would take. You say Iraq has nothing to do with Osama, fine HE was his own WMD. supporting terror, attempting to assasinate the President of the United States etc. So you think that doing little nothing is a better plan? I don't. At the same time, I also believe that it's all inevitable...Bush is likely just a tool. If not him, someone else with a different agenda but same outcome. PEOPLE felt the same away about Reagan and the Soviet Union. Armageddon was inevitable then too. Bah! Bush is has a similar vison. Spread freedom and watch it grow. No one in the 80's could have even imagined that the Soviet Block would be where they are today. Good luck to the peaceful Iraqi people. I hope there are not too many more American or otherwise lives lost during this election. THERE will be, but the liberty and freedom have always had to be fought for and won (probably because of the human nature you talk about), But I hoping for the best on Sunday in Iraq. TAKE it easy Buddy! Brett
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Post by Gonzalo el Silenciado on Jan 28, 2005 16:20:19 GMT -5
I think it's great that oppressed people can finally have a chance at freedom. I do remain pessemistic though that forced democracy and freedom can work long term, especially in such a volatile environment and surrounded by countries who don't and won't accept it. While I still don't agree with the way the Bush admin went about it, if it does work...that's great. Yeah, what he said. It's one thing when there's a revolution from wihtin. There's legitimacy in that. In either case, I do hope for the best, but I'm really not expecting it. Reason: excepting the Kurdish northern region, Iraq is more of a mess than it was under Saddam's rule. Do keep in mind that for a long time, maybe even as we speak, Russsians were better off financially under Soviet Socialism than under capitalism. There are no quick solutions, and I think one of the Bush administration's more serious errors was letting people to believe otherwise. I heard an interview with an Iraqi expatriate (they don't have to be in Iraq to vote) that said he would vote for Saddam just as a comment on the legitimacy of an imposed election. Bummer. We'll see what happens. Like I said, I do hope for the best. Shark Black: Well some of us realistic people have an optimistic view of human nature. No way. I try to believe that people are good at heart, but my experience forces me to believe that everyone is in it for themselves. I will concede that this isn't necesarilly a bad thing though. One other thing: At the risk of sounding like the pompous ass that I am, I know I am more intellectually intact than the general populace. Here's what's scary: I AM NOT A SUPERFUCKINGINTELLECTUAL. Once again I am reminded of an Onion headline: "Lowest Common Denominator Continues to Plummet." Shark Black: Democracies don't fight each other. Blanket statement and generalization. Don't make it sound like it's impossible. Also, remember Nazi Deutchland. When Hitler became Chancellor of the Weimar Republic, the German public democratically voted against democracy. Like I said, the greater chunk of people can be very stupid. I think I'm over my cold, and my finger is in one piece again. I think I'll celebrate tonight by drinking.
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Jan 29, 2005 13:18:06 GMT -5
YOU always bring up this thing called human nature as some evil curse that is doomed to destroy humanity. Well some of us realistic people have an optimistic view of human nature. When you limit the power that corrupts absolutely like most democracies have it can and does work. Democracies don't fight each other. Brett Just by looking at history(I realize we all see it a bit differently), and knowing that it does repeat itself...I do have a negative view of humanity/human nature and where it's heading. Who knows how long it will take, maybe not in our lifetimes...but I believe major changes are on the horizon. These worldwide religious disputes and terrorist uprisings are a precursor to a bigger war than we can fathom IMO. And I honestly can't help but have an immensely negative view of humanity when you see how imperfection is dragging us to more depths of depravation than ever. Sure more media coverage makes it seem like it's more while it's been going on since the beginning of time, but you can't deny that desperation, depression, and mental illnesses of all sorts are making people do some of the most hideous and disgusting things...that continue to get more extreme all the time. Of course I still try to have some faith that things will get better, but it's hard when I watch the progression(or regression) that's occuring all around us. But hey, at least we still have good music... ;D This keeps me sane and there's good people here regardless of our views... Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 29, 2005 18:19:22 GMT -5
These things go in cycles. Eventually over population will screw everything up unless we incorporate the Moon or Mars or something. But I grew up in the shadow of the cold war. The world s farther away from annhilation than we were 20 years ago. As long as we stay on top of it I think we'll be around for a long time. Did you know it took Japan 7 years to gain autonomy and Germany 10 years after World War 2? I think Iraq is moving at break neck speed and has a great chance of success if people are willing to stick to it. And the cost in Human lives was many fold higher. But it changed the world. The real threat to me is failure in Iraq by not having the stomach to see it through. If we are successful it will change the world...for the better.
: Cradle Of Filth: Death Magick For Adepts (Fargin' Kicks Arse!)
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Post by marvthemailman on Jan 29, 2005 20:31:26 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind. There are presently about 46 wars going right now, all in the name of religion. As long as this crap continues there will never be 'world peace' and democracy will never work in these countries when there is no freedom of religion. Remember 200 plus years ago, the US of A said all men were created equal and we still haven't been able to practice that in this country. Call me a pessimist, I say I'm a realist
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 29, 2005 21:11:19 GMT -5
You can't deny that in this country the trend is positive. Why we just nominated our first Female African American Secretary of State! Who just replaced the first Male African American Secretary of State! That's real enough ;D And it won't be but a decade or so and we'll elect Barack Obama as our Preisident... I predict...
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Post by marvthemailman on Jan 29, 2005 21:55:25 GMT -5
token uncle toms
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 29, 2005 22:08:47 GMT -5
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Jan 30, 2005 11:00:04 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind. There are presently about 46 wars going right now, all in the name of religion. As long as this crap continues there will never be 'world peace' and democracy will never work in these countries when there is no freedom of religion. Remember 200 plus years ago, the US of A said all men were created equal and we still haven't been able to practice that in this country. Call me a pessimist, I say I'm a realist Religion is no doubt the cause of most of the problems we face. As much as I've had a problem with Bush's religious stands relating to gov't, I'm not so much worried about him as the trend that's being set in the Senate with some of these fanatics. There's a lot of attempts being made to make laws based on their beliefs. Whether they become law or not remains to be seen. I also believe that religious organizations of many forms are gaining power in this country. The point is, in this age of fear...people will flock to the idea of God and Jesus being on our side. A false sense of security for sure...but what else do they have? They also will become more comfortable with an administration that has faith-based leaders that make faith-based decisions. I believe that's already beginning. Also, I'm not racist even a little...and I don't think your comment about "uncle Toms" was racist. In gov't, nothing is done genuinely IMO. I think minorities should have oppurtunities and also feel that the ones that have are qualified...but at the same time, putting them in those positions will always be done for gaining votes reasons. The Dems and Repubs fought very hard to get Powell to join their side...partly because he's a smart articulate guy, partly because he's black. Simple as that. Seth
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Post by marvthemailman on Jan 30, 2005 18:00:34 GMT -5
Also, I'm not racist even a little...and I don't think your comment about "uncle Toms" was racist. In gov't, nothing is done genuinely IMO. I think minorities should have oppurtunities and also feel that the ones that have are qualified...but at the same time, putting them in those positions will always be done for gaining votes reasons. The Dems and Repubs fought very hard to get Powell to join their side...partly because he's a smart articulate guy, partly because he's black. Simple as that. Seth Exactly what I meant. African-Americans are for the most part Democrats. There is a reason for this. While the Democrats have done very little for them, the Republicans have done even less
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 30, 2005 18:56:48 GMT -5
Sorry but this smiley is too funny! The idea is to create an environment where they can do for themselves. Not to create an environment where they are slaves to the system, sucking off the teat of Uncle Sam. I'm sure that milk tastes good but they can't get very far without having to feed. And to say that if a black person believes in the first message (the republican message) as opposed to the second message ( the democrat's message) is an uncle tom might be considered insulting. And I wouldn't call Condoleeza Rice and Colon Powell Uncle Toms. They are very capable individuals who seem to believe in what they are doing. Did I ever tell you how cool those walking skeletons are? I'm sure I have. Have a most excellent day!
: Dark Tranquillity: Damage Done
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Post by marvthemailman on Jan 30, 2005 19:20:05 GMT -5
And I wouldn't call Condoleeza Rice and Colon Powell Uncle Toms. They are very capable individuals who seem to believe in what they are doing.
I don't think either one believe they are uncle toms but that is in reality what they are, and by that I meant political ploys. Both are capable individuals but tow the company line against what they know in their hearts is probably the wrong thing to do, especially Mr. Powell, it's no secret that he and Bush disagreed on foreign policy but he was a good boy and didn't do it in public. But he did do the right thing and resign gracefully before his butt was put on the line. Good Luck to Ms. Rice, she's going to need it
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BenMech
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
The One You Warned Me Of
Posts: 1,470
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Post by BenMech on Jan 30, 2005 22:29:31 GMT -5
And I wouldn't call Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell Uncle Toms. They are very capable individuals who seem to believe in what they are doing. I have NEVER seen any of this evidence that Condee is capable of the tasks her job descriptionS entail.
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