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Post by Gonzalo el Silenciado on Jan 31, 2005 9:50:48 GMT -5
Cut the Uncle Tom bullshit. You want a black perspective, ask a black person. They're not hard to find.
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 31, 2005 15:52:17 GMT -5
Well I was going to say that, but I'm not as eloquent with the English language as you Gonzo.
: Lemur Voice: Akasha Chronicles
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Post by marvthemailman on Jan 31, 2005 17:22:11 GMT -5
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Jan 31, 2005 18:28:47 GMT -5
LMAO... We're not going to get all PC now are we? Obviously there's no racist bullshit being spewed here, just looking at the reasoning behind some of the moves being made. I'm sure rational black people would agree to some degree with what's been said. It's even easier maybe for them to see alterior motives(if there are any) in gov't. I'm not on any side regarding this. But back to the original topic...the election was fairly successful. I can see a positive in that it happened, but in the long term...all we did was create another Isreal...IMO of course. We'll see how it goes. Seth
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Jan 31, 2005 19:41:36 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind. There are presently about 46 wars going right now, all in the name of religion. I simply cannot take your word for it. The burden of proof is on you, therefore you must name each war/conflict and their respective causes (religions, where applicable) as well as your evidentiary sources.As long as this crap continues there will never be 'world peace' ..... My belief in the basic greed and selfishness of all humans is the reason why I believe this "crap" will always continue. I defy anyone to prove that basic human nature is NOT greedy and selfish.
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Jan 31, 2005 19:51:02 GMT -5
I simply cannot take your word for it. The burden of proof is on you, therefore you must name each war/conflict and their respective causes (religions, where applicable) as well as your evidentiary sources.My belief in the basic greed and selfishness of all humans is the reason why I believe this "crap" will always continue. I defy anyone to prove that basic human nature is NOT greedy and selfish. Agree 100% unfortunately with the greed and selfishness comment. This "crap" will always continue the more imperfect we become. We sure aren't growing closer to perfection. As far as the wars comment, I take it as fact only because it's always been the case. Religion has started more wars and shed more blood than anything else. Don't know the exact current stats though. Seth
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Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
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Post by Virtual Scott on Jan 31, 2005 20:09:41 GMT -5
It's kinda a PR wetdream the reports. Of course the Bush adminsitration is going to play up the little positive events, but suffice to say, when most of certain sects (Sunni, Shite, etc) aren't hitting the polls, or can't get to the polls, or can't find the polls, how is this representative of a great and wondrous democracy? It's a farce... voting for candidates you don't know much about or their names or even where the polling places are until the day of? Sure there was a decent turn out, but I'm hearing other reports of questionable actions, fraud and violence that of course the corporate media, the media that's adverse to doing almost anything that wouldn't serve as beneficial propaganda for the White House, won't touch.
Think about it. Time, CNN, Newsweak, Fox, NBC, ad naseum aren't reporting half the truth or stories from the trenches, just what they think the god-fearing audiences want and need to hear. If the elections were all about truth, democracy and the american way, the US forces would be packin' it up with a big smile and a coke!
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Post by marvthemailman on Jan 31, 2005 20:45:15 GMT -5
I simply cannot take your word for it. The burden of proof is on you, therefore you must name each war/conflict and their respective causes (religions, where applicable) as well as your evidentiary sources.My belief in the basic greed and selfishness of all humans is the reason why I believe this "crap" will always continue. I defy anyone to prove that basic human nature is NOT greedy and selfish. no can do, just some useless trivia I heard somewhere and I can't remember where. IS greed the same as survival of the fittest?
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jan 31, 2005 21:17:40 GMT -5
It seems many put more faith in rumor and conjecture than all of the news services because they have some super secret ultra devious X-files motivation to keep the truth from the public. OK It's more fun anyway LMAO!
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Jan 31, 2005 23:39:53 GMT -5
Seth and marvthemailman:
For me, though, I find it so aggravating when people offer overly broad generalizations as if they were statements of fact. I make it my mission in life to challenge such assertions. Nowhere am I saying that such assertions or opinions are wrong, but if they cannot withstand the scrutiny of critical analysis then IMO they aren't worth having. So if it is true that there are 46 wars going on today in the name of religion, OR that religion has started more wars and shed more blood than anything else, then--please-- show me the stats!
Maybe you guys can help me out with this idea I have: I'm going to list all the wars/conflicts that America was involved in (at least all the ones that I can recall) and you can tell me HOW each was linked to religion. Okay, here goes:
1) Revolutionary War
2) War of 1812
3) Mexican-American War
4) Civil War/War Between the States
5) Spanish-American War
6) World War 1
7) World War 2
8) Korean War
9) Vietnam War
10) Desert Storm/Gulf War 1
11) Iraqi Freedom/Gulf War 2
The American-involved conflicts are just for starters. History is replete with wars and conflicts that were simply about human greed and selfishness and little or nothing to do at all with religion. Now, I'll throw you guys a bone and concede that the Crusades and the Thirty Years War were truly about religion; so don't go thinking that I'm trying to say that no wars were about religion--that's not what I'm doing here. It's like I said before that I'm challenging people to show some sort of proof for their assertions.
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Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
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Post by Virtual Scott on Feb 1, 2005 0:06:03 GMT -5
I don't think anyone can argue the impeccible credentials, impartiality and integrity of the corporate news media especially over the last 4 years. To believe ONLY what you read in TIME or see on CNN (let alone FOX, damn, after the Dan Rather "fiasco" FOX Network should've been dismantled) does a dis-service to the truth wherever it lies, it certainly isn't occupied legally, unlike Iraq! lol...
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Feb 1, 2005 7:01:12 GMT -5
Sir Van Talvin, I did research this topic once before and came up with some informative websites and stats. I'll try to find them again another time, but what's interesting is that many wars you think have absolutely nothing to do with religion can be traced back to that somehow. It's not always the "spark" or seemingly main point/goal, but behind the scenes is another story.
"Praise the Lord, and pass the ammo!"
Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Feb 1, 2005 15:14:24 GMT -5
(let alone FOX, damn, after the Dan Rather "fiasco" FOX Network should've been dismantled) That was CBS. Fox has never been caught using forged documents and presenting them as truth. That's like saying after the Microsoft antitust case, Apple should be shut down. FYI, Did you know that the French government doesn't allow Fox news in France? I think we get the picture here. We have multiple sources coming at stories from just about every angle. And the fact that people like CBS and Dan Rather get called out is awesome. Just like the disclosure issues with those media people pushing government policies and proposals. It's called accountability. And I think we we see that here. Are you going to progpower this year homie? ;D
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Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
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Post by Virtual Scott on Feb 1, 2005 18:04:54 GMT -5
Yo dude, I didn't mean FOX featured the CBS debacle (which wasn't that factually incorrect, it has substantial merit, but still has not been fully investigated, the documents and Bush's military "service" (inaction) but actually the FOX News networks reason to exist is to propegate the republican agenda moreso than any other news organiztion, it's practically a mouth piece for the republican party and the Bush administration. To put any credibility in their "fair and balanced" slogan alone is to give the devil his due. I trust the mass media these days as much as the Bush administration to tell the truth on Social Security and WMD.
Kudos to the French! Haha... kinda. I don't support censorship of any kind, though, so merely offering FOX news as a subscriber option is ok, with a disclaimer of course. :-)
To a degree, Rather isn't much to blame. The story should be fully investigate, he was scapegoated to a large degree. Of couse, being one of the more "liberal" broadcasters, that alone means a spanking from the corporate behemoths. FOX itself has spewed more propaganda, although now that the Bush administration uses TAX dollars to fund radio programs to promote their policies (A clear violation, no?) maybe the FCC should start lobbying massive fines against Bush?
Progpower! I am hoping to make it out there, dude... don't know the living situation or where we'll be in the country, heh heh, or the band lineup (does it matter this much? I've missed the last 3 years dammit!), I will do my best to get out there just to hang with the crew!
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Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Feb 1, 2005 19:29:25 GMT -5
Sir Van Talvin, I did research this topic once before and came up with some informative websites and stats. Excellent! I look forward to whenever you can find the time to share such informative websites with me. Why should I have to do any research when I can have you as my slave do it for me? Awww, crap...did I say that out loud? Stupid fingers typing faster than the speed of self-censorship...dammit!!!.....but what's interesting is that many wars you think have absolutely nothing to do with religion can be traced back to that somehow. It's not always the "spark" or seemingly main point/goal, but behind the scenes is another story The many wars I think have nothing to do with religion? Whoa....waitaminnit....I thought that the aluminum foil wrapped around my head prevented ANYONE from reading my mind while online (guess I was wrong there ). Must....find....lead...foil...
OK, in all seriousness now, is it your contention that the many conflicts from ancient times were about religion? Stuff like Egyptians vs. Hittites, Egyptians vs. Assyrians, Egyptians vs. Babylonians, Assyrians vs. Babylonians, Babylonians vs. Elamites, Babylonians vs. Kassites, etc. These ancient conflicts from more than 2500 years ago are along the lines of what I'm thinking about. Some of the stuff a little more recent than 2500 years ago would be the various barbarian tribes going after the Roman Empire (Huns, Avars, Goths, Franks, Vandals--were they "sparked" by religion?). Or even more recent than that, the rise of the Mongol Empire (was Ghengis Khan "sparked" by religion or revenge?). This is by no means an exhaustive list of non-religious conflicts that I can name.
I anticipate that your response might be something along the lines of "religion playing a role" and I would not discount that contention. Some way somehow a religious undertone can be found in a great number of conflicts. But proving that as a point (which I concede, anyways) does not also prove the assertion that (and I quote), "Religion has started more wars and shed more blood than anything else."
If anyone paints with overly-broad strokes, then they should watch out for the guy (or gal) with paint thinner
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