Sir Van Talvin
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The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
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Post by Sir Van Talvin on Apr 11, 2006 17:11:43 GMT -5
Somebody had to bring it up here...might as well be me So we've got these big demonstrations going on around the country where a lot of the participants are people who can't even vote. I'm talking about high school students and illegal aliens. I have no way of knowing what percentage they constitute overall in these demonstrations, but it seems a little absurd to me for them to be taking to the streets demanding "rights." Seems to me as though the concepts of "rights" and "due process" go hand in hand. So if you're going to sidestep due process then don't expect rights to be handed to you freely. #chatterbox# This is just a short and truncated rant on the issue. I don't feel like going into everything I want to cover right now.....maybe later. For now I'll just be content to see how everyone else here chimes in on this issue.
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Apr 11, 2006 18:39:39 GMT -5
I've been thinking about making a thread about this too, just haven't been on much lately. Of course this hits home here as well as for those members in CA and TX, it's been a bit crazy.
First of all, before I make any observations it should be known that I am not rascist even in the least little bit. I have worked with and currently work with many Mexicans, several of whom I know to be illegal. Both of my immediate neighbors are and I suspect at least one of them is illegal. It's a bit hard when you become friends and neighbors with people to be objective, of course I don't allow myself to become good friends with anyone really and I keep to myself for the most part with the neighbors...but I'm as social as I need to be and they're decent hard-working people. The occasional loud party here and there, nothing that ever pisses me off...and some of the ones I've worked with are good people also.
There's no doubt that they are hard workers, of course that's a big generalization since many of them fall into the same welfare, drag on society category that a percentage of whites and blacks do. But most of them are willing to work and the majority of those put everything they have into making a go of it for them and their families.
Having said all that, there are of course major downsides to allowing this 'open border' to continue. I may catch some crap for this, but when we watch the local news...it's nothing but a rundown of today's crimes, and I would say at least 70% of them are commited by Mexicans...and of those about 70% are Mexican Nationals(illegals). So where a noble effort to come to a better country to better yourself and family can be a good thing, it seems to lead a lot of these people into desperate situations where drugs, robbery, rape, and murder end up being their careers. Then there's the ones who come up just to do those things and run back home where their gov't won't cooperate with us. A cop was killed awhile ago and that drama is still playing out.
The other big downside of course is the drain on the economy, first with lost jobs for legal Americans(of whatever descent)...then with massive amounts of money being spent on health insurance and hospital bills for the hundreds and thousands of children being born to illegal parents with no money.
The job issue is the hottest debate and there are truths to both sides of it, jobs we won't do...or would we if they paid us what they're worth rather than what they can shovel the guys they pick up at Home Depot under the table. Doubt there will be a conclusion to that one, chicken and egg.
As far as your comments SVT, I agree and the one thing that I was happy to see here yesterday was at least the waving of the American flag rather than Mexico's like they did awhile back. But it doesn't change the fact that if the law has been broken, certain requests and rights are taken away...not piled on. If I break the law in any way, I'm screwed...especially in this county with some of the toughest laws and a bad ass Sherriff. But the law is broken everyday by hundreds and something should change. My prediction is that some changes on paper will be made, but in reality the problem will get worse. Congress, the righties and lefties can't agree on anything substantial...so nothing substantial changes.
I'm all for immigration done the right way, but done the wrong way makes lots of problems...not cracking down on the existing situation now will lead to a lot more than a problem.
I also feel that if a major crackdown was to happen, all hell will break loose. Love these win/win situations... ;D
Seth
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Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
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Post by Fox on Apr 12, 2006 7:50:15 GMT -5
I had a cousin that was killed by an illegal alien drunk driver.
Then again if we just abolished the income tax in favor of consumption taxes, and dissolved the welfare state this problem would just solve itself.
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Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
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Post by Fox on Apr 12, 2006 8:19:23 GMT -5
Found this elsewhere:
Dear President Bush:
I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.
I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.
So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:
1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.
14. I don't expect to have myself or my family checked or vaccinated against any communicable diseases.
I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that President Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.
Thank you so much for your kind help. Sincerely,
Your Once Loyal Constituents
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kerrick
Monument http://www.fateswa
Posts: 430
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Post by kerrick on Apr 12, 2006 18:41:13 GMT -5
Fox, that was absolutely hilarious. See, the thing is, minorities always get better rights, and no matter where a white person is, he/she is still not considered a minority (even in the heart of Mexico), so I don't think that Vicente is going to for it (note the sarcasm)... I loved it though. Where did you find that? -Kerrick
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Apr 12, 2006 19:28:33 GMT -5
That is pretty funny, but also makes the point quite clear. Your statement was right on the money too Kerrick, sad but true. Sucks about your cousin Fox, and interesting points about taxes and welfare... #hmm#
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Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
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Post by Fox on Apr 13, 2006 8:24:15 GMT -5
I just found it on another message board, I lol'd.
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kerrick
Monument http://www.fateswa
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Post by kerrick on Apr 13, 2006 11:07:28 GMT -5
Cool cool. I emailed a copy of that to my parents and they really liked it too. When I first started reading it, I saw the "Dear President Bush," and I was like, "oh no, another attempt to cleverly make fun of Bush" then I read the whole thing and "lol'd" as well. Good stuff, and as Seth wrote, it is way funny, but also makes a strong point. -Kerrick
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Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
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Post by Virtual Scott on Apr 26, 2006 8:23:14 GMT -5
"Minorities get better rights"? Huh?
Something makes me think that "Letter to Bush" was actually written by a massive Ann Coulter fan, if not her herself (then again, it would have to be much more overt in it's blatant ignorance, bigotry and vitriol.) Kind of obtrusively over-simplifies the situation and there's not just a subtle tinge of racism in their either.
I'm still thinking... whites are not the minority, relative to population in the US, yet. The "White" category covers many ethnicities, and therefore, even with the rising non-white populations, the white majority is still just that, the white majority.
The other sticking point is that there isn't - across the board - fair representation of minorities at almost any level of government, educational professions, etc, so even when whites are the minority, it's unquestionable that the vast majority of government and legislative bodies nationwide will be white dominated, and therefore, most likely, appealing and catering to issues that effect their constituents, to a degree.
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Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
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Post by Virtual Scott on Apr 26, 2006 8:26:00 GMT -5
It seems to me, not to long ago, when women and blacks - who at the time had little no rights - we're protesting in the streets - so this shouldn't come as a surprised to anyone just as the fact that every hispanic we see at a protest is, in fact, an illegal. The protests served and continue to serve, an important purpose - to bring a heated debate to a very topical and important subject that is of tremendous importance for the future of the country.
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kerrick
Monument http://www.fateswa
Posts: 430
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Post by kerrick on Apr 26, 2006 20:11:23 GMT -5
"Minorities get better rights"? Huh? The other sticking point is that there isn't - across the board - fair representation of minorities at almost any level of government, educational professions, etc, so even when whites are the minority, it's unquestionable that the vast majority of government and legislative bodies nationwide will be white dominated, and therefore, most likely, appealing and catering to issues that effect their constituents, to a degree. That's a good point, but is it the white guys/gals that aren't allowing minorities into govermental, educational, etc professions or are the minorities not trying to get into such jobs? Now this is just my observation, but I remember in my highschool, any minority (especially sexual orientation) was absolutely worshipped. At a primarily white school in a very liberal area (Santa Cruz County, CA), if you were of any sort of ethnic or sexual minority, you were praised. They definitely got special treatment and attention. Still, with all this, hardly any of the faculty were minorities, even though they came from all around the county (which has a large Hispanic population). Do you think that the school was pushing away minority teachers? I seriously doubt it. Minorities were certainly welcome, so why didn't they come? Now this is just one example, and may have no connection to what you were talking about, Scott, but I think that maybe it's a model for a greater picture. And truthfully, I don't know the answer, but I definitely don't think that there's some "vast white conspiracy" here (not that you were implying that). Oh, and about your other second post. The difference between the Blacks/women and the Hispanic protestors, is that the Blacks and the women were American citizens and therefore deserve the same rights as any other citizen. I'm not saying that the Hispanics don't deserve those same rights, but that's how America works. If you're an American citizen, you [should] automatically have certain rights, but if you're not, those rights don't apply (and neither do the costs, such as taxes, etc.). Sorry for ranting for so long . -Kerrick
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Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
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Post by Virtual Scott on Apr 27, 2006 12:50:43 GMT -5
Ok, yeah, I'll agree with your first sentence or two. It's true, look at the influence of African-American culture since the early part of the 2oth century. A true dichotomy in that while blacks had no rights and were still being lynched, their contributions to popular culture has been bookmarked and, many times, overlooked. But in high schools - and i'm sure if there are any non-white on this board, which I suspect there aren't - most minority students weren't necessarilly admired/looked up to as much as they were demeaened and were the victims of bigotry, especially behind closed doors. ATleast 15+ years ago, for certain. And since we're talking overall, I'm certain this was also the case around the country, a certain few more progressive, culturally-advanced, mult-ethnic, tolerant school disticts be damned. I agree with most of your post, otherwise, but the vitriol and thinly veiled racism that is coming to the surface is loathesome at the same time it's telling about this entire issue. C'aio, dude!
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kerrick
Monument http://www.fateswa
Posts: 430
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Post by kerrick on Apr 27, 2006 17:42:19 GMT -5
A valid point. You see, my position is straight up equality. In my ideal world, people wouldn't be defined as "minorities" and "majorities" so much as simply human beings. I'd like to look past the color of people's skin. While it is important to never forget our ethnic roots and such, I think that too much focus is set upon that, which brings division. Remember the term "seperate but equal" in the context of Blacks? They were certainly seperate, but definitely not equal. As long as the seperation/division of people based on their ethnicity exists, so will inequality because any difference is going to be looked upon as inferior or superior in people's eyes. If you look at a person and see no difference, you will see no inferiority/superiority. See what I mean? I feel that maybe I'm not explaining myself very well, but I don't know how else to word what I'm thinking. Thoughts? but the vitriol and thinly veiled racism that is coming to the surface is loathesome at the same time it's telling about this entire issue. C'aio, dude! Could you please expand on that? Who are you referring to about the "thinly veiled racism?" The government, general populace, me?
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Apr 27, 2006 18:21:44 GMT -5
Something makes me think that "Letter to Bush" was actually written by a massive Ann Coulter fan, if not her herself (then again, it would have to be much more overt in it's blatant ignorance, bigotry and vitriol.) Whether or not she wrote it, I couldn't agree more with the descriptive outline as it applies to Ms. Knowitall. The protests served and continue to serve, an important purpose - to bring a heated debate to a very topical and important subject that is of tremendous importance for the future of the country. I have no problem with the protests, they can always cause inconveniences for certain people...but in any democracy they should be welcome. What they want is another story, of course if some kind of compromise could be had...maybe there could be a workable situation. I don't think that's likely though, many people want to close the border completely and on the other side...they want it completely open with no restrictions. There needs to be a middle of the road, but our gov't isn't good at that...it's one extreme or the other based on who's pockets get padded and how it will affect the voting. The difference between the Blacks/women and the Hispanic protestors, is that the Blacks and the women were American citizens and therefore deserve the same rights as any other citizen. I'm not saying that the Hispanics don't deserve those same rights, but that's how America works. If you're an American citizen, you [should] automatically have certain rights, but if you're not, those rights don't apply (and neither do the costs, such as taxes, etc.). That's generally been my philosophy, and at the same time I try to maintain the line of thought that gives all humans the same rights across the board(this leads into the racism discussion later). There's a fine line between America doing what it can for minorities and going too far and ignoring it's actual citizens. When it comes to the economy, there are problems being caused...there are American citizens suffering(to varying degrees) by an influx that's not being monitored or controlled correctly. So what rights a person has based on their citizenship status is a major issue, one that I've been milling over a lot since I've lived here. Some of the major complaints I've had are the medical issues, minorities can get medical insurance of some sort by walking in the hospital pregnant...then comes social services. Whites can and do get those things too of course, but if you're not a citizen to begin with...the rest of the working citizens shouldn't have to pay for that. and i'm sure if there are any non-white on this board, which I suspect there aren't How could you forget about Gonzo? Remember the term "seperate but equal" in the context of Blacks? They were certainly seperate, but definitely not equal. As long as the seperation/division of people based on their ethnicity exists, so will inequality because any difference is going to be looked upon as inferior or superior in people's eyes. If you look at a person and see no difference, you will see no inferiority/superiority. That's certainly an 'ideal' world scenario, and it is mine also...I don't like racism in the least. It's sad that it's such a main element in our society as well as around the world, I always say that the world would be a much better and easier place to live if people didn't get offended so easily. And what offends people the most, comments about their race. Not that this hasn't been around forever, but dissention over race and religion is the biggest sign of the times we live in and on a bigger scale than ever before...as evidenced by what's going on worldwide. Seth Disclaimer: I only brought up religion since a 'perfect world' scenario was brought up, has nothing to do with the immigration subject...
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Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
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Post by Virtual Scott on Apr 28, 2006 9:28:09 GMT -5
Gonzo! Yup... my bad! Damn...
Seth I can see most of your points and agree to a large degree. You make good points to basically what a bunch of others have expressed. I just thought that original "letter" post was thinly veiled racist. And thats being kind.
No problem with the religious thing. To each their own and to own with each... huh?
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