Bush vs. Katrina

[SethFWF]

These people blaming Bush for this are beyond idiots. While I'm not a big fan, common sense dictates that #1, no environmental efforts will stop things like this, and #2, the gov't is doing the best they can.

Certain comments may even have a little validity, "we'd have more help available if we weren't in Iraq", "the gov't should have responded quicker"... but now is not the time for that BS. At least there haven't been too many politicians spewing this crap...yet.

Normally I don't care much to listen to Bush on TV, but after he surveyed some of the areas...he had a good TV spot. He said whatever has not been done up to standards will be done immediately, and I think anyone that saw his short speech should feel that he and everyone that can are on it.

These people are pissed no doubt, desparate, sick, hungry and all that. While I think Congress could have jumped on this quicker, possibly in preparation before it hit on Sunday...they're doing the best they can right now.

The Calvary is there to shut down these criminals, hopefully everyone can get out to better conditions quickly.

Seth

[Fox]

Looters (from corporations giving money to them), shooting at the National Guard, gorging gas prices.

Fuck those people, they made their bed, now lie in it.

Total ingrates, I felt horrible at first...now meh...

[Shark Black]

I agree with you Seth.
And those criminals need to friggin drown Fox.
For the rest who are trying to get through this, my heart goes out to them.
Tragic.

Plus do you think if a Democrat was in office anything would be done differently? NO

Do you think if a Democrat was in office you have this snide second guessing? NO

If God himself reached down and squished a city, they'd find a way to blame Bush... amazingly asinine, unprofessional and stupid. These detractors need to get a real job and just shut up.

MAybe they need some chocolate ice cream, no?

[SethFWF]

Absolutely, chocolate ice cream for everyone...will help tremendously...

But some lessons need to be learned from this, while there's no need or time for all the finger pointing...hopefully the gov't as a whole will get some more insight since we may be in one of those bad hurricane cycles for years to come.

IMO, unless there was ever in history a hurricane that stalled 100 miles from the coast and just evaporated, Congress has no reason not to assemble and approve the relief money before the storm hits or while it's hitting...not 4 days after. And while none of us really know the logistics involved, I think it would be a huge improvement if in this case for instance...they began to mobilize on Saturday/Sunday when they saw how massive this thing was...National Guard in the thousands along with trucks full of water, food, and supplies sitting on the East border of Texas waiting to rush in there as soon as it passed.

There's no-one that should bear the brunt of this slow response, not Bush or Chertoff, or FEMA...but all of the bipartisan gov't needs to look ahead on how to respond to these things better and quicker. In the meantime, they're getting the job done now and once something like this gets underway...it's quite impressive.

As far as the criminals, they need to drown themselves...most will probably get sicker than hell from runnin' around that cess-pool and it serves them right. But there are thousands of decent people, poor and/or tourists who really didn't have a choice but to stay and deserve help.

Seth

[Joe-×]

Bush is to blame.

Bush isn't to blame for the hurricane. He didn't cause it. He had no way to stop it.

Bush isn't to blame for the fact that New Orleans is below sea level. He didn't create the city, and he didn't have the power to eliminate it.

Bush isn't to blame for the fact that a bunch of criminals went crazy in the aftermath of the flood. A disaster brings out the best in some people and brings out the worst in others. He can't be blamed for human nature.

Bush isn't to blame for the slow response of the disaster relief workers. Government sucks at that sort of crap, and it isn't fair to blame Bush for a failed concept.

Bush is to blame for the levee failure. That's the real disaster. The basic facts as I've read and heard them is that the hurricane wasn't all that bad in New Orleans. It wasn't the big one that they feared. The real problem was the failure of the levees. For the first day, all the attention was on Mississippi which took the direct hit. The devastation there was considerable and mostly unavoidable. It is the avoidable nature of the New Orleans disaster that deserves blame. Everything else was just nature doing its thing - it seems dumb to me for people to try to project that blame onto others.

Bush is to blame for the levee failure. He's the top guy in the federal government. The feds built the levees. They owned the levees. They took responsibility for the levees. The levees failed. The feds failed. That's just the facts.

Looking beyond the basic facts, there is the failure of honesty. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4204754.stm

I don't know if Bush intended to lie when he stated that, but it is not true. He hasn't accepted responsibility for mis-stating the facts.

plasma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html?fs=www7.nationalgeographic.com

www.hurricane.lsu.edu/_in_the_news/houston.htm

www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050207/ai_n10176537
www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367

americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/wetlands/hurricane_print.html

www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10180

With all this information known, the Bush administration made a deliberate decision to cut the budget of the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control in New Orleans. If you hollered that "hindsight is 20/20," I'd be the first to agree with you. I feel the same way. The government is only capable of stealing so much from the productive, and hard decisions must be made regarding which group of blood-sucking parasites gets to collect the loot. If it was an honest mistake in risk management, the Bush crowd should just admit it and accept the responsibility. But they haven't. And they won't. It's not in their nature.

An admission of this sort would require Bush to acknowledge the fact that the government is incapable of providing security to people. That would undermine everything he's ever said. Bush will continue to aggrandize state power - with new spending and more "oversight" and more centralized planning - all things that will fail.

Bush deserves the blame.

Joe

[Sir Van Talvin]

joex said:

Bush is to blame for the levee failure. That's the real disaster. The basic facts as I've read and heard them is that the hurricane wasn't all that bad in New Orleans. It wasn't the big one that they feared. The real problem was the failure of the levees. For the first day, all the attention was on Mississippi which took the direct hit. The devastation there was considerable and mostly unavoidable. It is the avoidable nature of the New Orleans disaster that deserves blame. Everything else was just nature doing its thing - it seems dumb to me for people to try to project that blame onto others.

Bush is to blame for the levee failure. He's the top guy in the federal government. The feds built the levees. They owned the levees. They took responsibility for the levees. The levees failed. The feds failed. That's just the facts.

Looking beyond the basic facts, there is the failure of honesty. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4204754.stm

I don't know if Bush intended to lie when he stated that, but it is not true. He hasn't accepted responsibility for mis-stating the facts.

plasma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html?fs=www7.nationalgeographic.com

www.hurricane.lsu.edu/_in_the_news/houston.htm

www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050207/ai_n10176537
www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367

americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/wetlands/hurricane_print.html

www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10180

With all this information known, the Bush administration made a deliberate decision to cut the budget of the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control in New Orleans. If you hollered that "hindsight is 20/20," I'd be the first to agree with you. I feel the same way. The government is only capable of stealing so much from the productive, and hard decisions must be made regarding which group of blood-sucking parasites gets to collect the loot. If it was an honest mistake in risk management, the Bush crowd should just admit it and accept the responsibility. But they haven't. And they won't. It's not in their nature.

An admission of this sort would require Bush to acknowledge the fact that the government is incapable of providing security to people. That would undermine everything he's ever said. Bush will continue to aggrandize state power - with new spending and more "oversight" and more centralized planning - all things that will fail.

Bush deserves the blame.

Joe

You disappoint me, Joe. I thought of you as someone with the ability to see the forest in spite of the tree(s).

You can't blame the Executive Branch for something only Congress can authorize (i.e., spending). That was pointed out in the 11th paragraph of National Geographic article that you posted.

I don't know whether to call you short-sighted or naive, but the assumption that if the Army Corps of Engineers budget had not been cut that that would somehow lead to adequate levee work being completed IN TIME before Katrina hit is nothing short of wishful thinking.

The blame truly lies with every President AND member of Congress since the last devastating hurricane to hit the Big Easy some 36 years ago.

[SethFWF]

Yeah, they've been predicting this
for many years...during Clinton's
run and a little more lately since the
cycle has returned to more hurricanes
per season.

I'm not to thrilled with O'reilly bashing
the Governer down there as if it's all
her fault. Anything to do with her being
a Democrat?... No one should be
singled out, better put that effort into
fixing the problems...wherever they
stem from.

Seth

[Joe-×]

You can't blame the Executive Branch for something only Congress can authorize (i.e., spending). That was pointed out in the 11th paragraph of National Geographic article that you posted.

I think you are the one being naive. Congress defaulted on its responsibility for nearly everything a long time ago. The American people want a powerful executive and that's what we've got. My inside experience has taught me that all of government at all levels is one big slush fund for the top guy to spend however he wants regardless of what little scraps of paper say about official authority and whatnot.

And, wishful thinking aside, the levee system manages to keep Holland dry. Maybe we just need some Dutch boys.

Joe

[Shark Black]

That's hurricane country there.

And as for the state government in Louisiana, they must be inadequate.
Mississipi is dealing, Florida has been dealing for a few straight years now. Understood the flooding in New Orleans was terrible, but Biloxi and Gulfport are flattened and you don't see the mayhem.

Not that any fingers should be pointed anywhere, just deal and learn.

Our wonderful legislature is already shamelessly politicizing this at the expense of the victims, just like they did around the events of 911, and the way they keep giving to our servicemen.

[SethFWF]

I don't think anyone from city to state to
federal really did what was needed as
far as preparation. I have to believe that
the Governer and Mayor were beside
themselves getting the pre-emptive states
of emergencies handled along with the evacuation
of New Orleans...plus throw in that they were
likely being pushed, pulled and tugged in every
direction for those 2 days before with questions,
watching the storm, listening to everyone's
predictions...etc... I think it's a lot to ask that those
2 should've done more and better to avoid all this
mayhem. This is the worst storm to ever hit the
country after all.

And I don't know her from crap or like/dislike her
because she's a Democrat, I just think O'Reilly was
too harsh on her when he's saying you can't blame
Bush or any one person for the mess.

Seth

[Sir Van Talvin]

joex said:

I think you are the one being naive. Congress defaulted on its responsibility for nearly everything a long time ago.

What the.....? We're talking about money and the politics of it. There's no way Congress would ever default on their constitutional "power of the purse" - not with so many special interests at stake. Does the term "pork barrel" ring any bells?

joex said:

My inside experience has taught me that all of government at all levels is one big slush fund for the top guy to spend however he wants regardless of what little scraps of paper say about official authority and whatnot.

Nice. Care to elaborate a little on what exactly constitutes "inside experience"?

joex said:

And, wishful thinking aside, the levee system manages to keep Holland dry.

What Sharkie said.

[Shark Black]

Bush went for it! ;D He finally hit an approval rating as low as Clinton's was!!! 37%

Of course the press would tell you that his rating is as rare as sashimi!! Because when Bush is president the rating leads the news when Clinton was president it was page two... at least.

Just another way they lead all the lemmings along

#chatterbox#

[kerrick]

Funny how things work out like that...

[Virtual Scott]

Hmmm... I don't think with all the information that has come to light, currently, one can NOT blame Bush as complicit in the failure of the Federal Government (and local, and state as well.) It IS the governments responsibility, and the presidents, as, as is the course lately, they failed miserably and still have no cohesive answers. It's atrocious the neglience, incompotence and ineptitude bordering on criminal, and yet... STILL, no accountability. As a matter of fact this administration is STILL hellbent on the expansion, of presidental power carte blanche, without checks and balances, even with the massive amounts of corruption occuring over and under the radar. Pathetic.

[Fox]

virtualscott said:

Hmmm... I don't think with all the information that has come to light, currently, one can NOT blame Bush as complicit in the failure of the Federal Government (and local, and state as well.) It IS the governments responsibility, and the presidents, as, as is the course lately, they failed miserably and still have no cohesive answers. It's atrocious the neglience, incompotence and ineptitude bordering on criminal, and yet... STILL, no accountability. As a matter of fact this administration is STILL hellbent on the expansion, of presidental power carte blanche, without checks and balances, even with the massive amounts of corruption occuring over and under the radar. Pathetic.

What amazes me is that you can say that an be an advocate for MORE government.