SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
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Post by SethFWF on Nov 16, 2005 6:04:47 GMT -5
I get what you're saying about the Dems and I agree for the most part... apnews.excite.com/article/20051116/D8DTGB700.htmlBut this is a classic case of trying to justify a wrong(or what's perceived as a wrong by more and more people) by pointing out another wrong. I do understand a certain need to defend ones self though and I actually have never gone as far as to say Bush and his people 'lied'. Again, it comes down to who pulled the trigger and I don't think going back to all the years we dealt with Iraq is a case for them taking their time with this. I'll never defend Saddam or his regime, but once they allowed inspectors back in...whether they were deceitful or not, we should've started from scratch with the plans for war. The last resolution was in place, the inspectors were there and we had a better hold on the situation. This admin. had plans for war from day one, no intelligence to the contrary would have stopped it. Just so happens that the intel was there to support it and nobody felt the need to scrutinize anything before jumping into a major war. I think it is somewhat 'black and white' when it comes to the mideast. You and many others I'm afraid are far too over confident with our capabilities to rule the world. There's a lot of people in those countries and we do nothing more than continue to piss them off. We're just going about it the wrong way, if there's a need for military action...then so be it. And no, we shouldn't wait until we're attacked first...but we do carry enough weight to scare world leaders into shaping up before we go in all guns blazing. Peace over there and worldwide in general is a pipe dream. Increased technology won't bring peace and mankind isn't learning how to work with each other better...only how to kill each other better. Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Nov 22, 2005 12:47:47 GMT -5
More and more huh?
Congress votes 403-3 to not bring troops home now. Just shows it's all politics. They would never think of abandoning the Iraqi People, and the security of the middle east. They just smell blood in the water and are using every effort to twist the facts, that we are winning in Iraq, that we've hit every major milestone in the plan for Iraqi independence, (sovereignty, parliamentary vote, Constitution written, Constitution approved by the people, and next they will vote for their permanent leaders) and sooner not later they will begin to be able to fend for them selves....
So this whole thing of attacking the president for saying EXACTLY what they themselves were saying before the war is wrong... these are below the belt punches. There is no mention of the 90 plus Iraqi battalions that are in place. Setting a deadline just yet is stupid. It is undermining the troops, undermining the efforts in Iraq, emboldening the enemies of the US, and in my mind is disgraceful... Because we are winning, and we will win unless these whining assholes won't shut their traps and have a little faith in our military, have a little faith in the Iraqi people. Because in a year we will begin to draw down from Iraq and the job will be complete in the right way.
Not the cut run and abandon way that these pompous politicos atacking the US government are suggesting.
Just imagine what the middle east would look like if we withdrew now and turned the country over to the terrorists, instead of leaving Iraq with a Government that respects its people.
There is no debate in my mind.
It's all BS and even these detractors know it.
That's just my opinion.
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Nov 22, 2005 19:18:19 GMT -5
I still say we can't leave, that would be stupid. But what exactly are we winning over there? The reason more and more people(votes in Congress excluded) don't like this war is because it's becoming apparant that Iraq will be a quagmire for years to come and many wonder if it's actually better. You can say 'they have Democracy now, it must be better'... but we're not the ones who live there.
Saddam vs. Al Qaida?? Once we do finally leave, they're likely to be targets for decades of this terrorist bullshit...that is certainly not subsiding at this point. Not that I concentrate on the 'low-point' articles, but they're there and the death toll for us and the Iraqies is rising.
I've tried very hard to not pick apart this war and the admin., and to a degree I think berating them the way some of the Democrats and others are doing is extreme. I have no delusions though that if the tables were turned, the Repubs would do the same, that's just politics and everything they do is extreme and often idiotic.
This will play out however it will, but I've still yet to find any moral and caring bottom line for anything this or any gov't does. IMO, it's naive to think otherwise and moreso to think things will truly get better when we as imperfect humans attempt to impose our will as a nation on everyone else.
Sad, but true.
Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Nov 22, 2005 19:59:43 GMT -5
You Said... I have no delusions though that if the tables were turned, the Repubs would do the same, that's just politics and everything they do is extreme and often idiotic. I really think this is a false Statement, the Republicans never said anything to Clinton about bombing Baghdad for 30 days in 1998, because they knew it was right. They didn't criticize Clinton for Bombing Serbia (without UN approval) because they knew it was right. They never got in a hissy when Clinton cut and ran from Somalia... they never made politics out of something so important as the use of our armed services. So your delusional hehe!!! Just Kidding But I have never nor I doubt will I ever see a show like the show that these knee jerking panty wastes are pulling right now.... But again, that's just my opinion.. .
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Nov 22, 2005 21:17:45 GMT -5
That's the problem with your retort, what's right for someone isn't for someone else. Who exactly says what's right? Here we go with the philisophical again, and nobody answers me when I ask these pertinent questions... But, if the Repubs had a major issue with something the Dems were doing...they would piss and moan too. I have a big problem with anyone saying their political party is right, is better, is smarter, is morally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually superior to another set of humans masquerading as people who actually give a fuck about anyone but themselves. They're all crooks, and it's impossible according to human nature for people in power to be anything but. Special interest groups are running the show, and there's a reason why they're called special... Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Nov 23, 2005 12:52:19 GMT -5
I am not saying the Republicans are better, but I will say that the Democrats are acting irresponsible. And as I pointed out the Republicans do not play the anti-war anti military game. they just don't. They may play a lot fo other games but they don't seem to play as much politics with foreign politics as the Democrats. And as for whats right or wrong, it's been the official stance of the US government that Saddam need to go for 2 decades. And moral relativism only goes so far. If you are saying that life under a tyrannical dictator like Saddam who has used WMD on his own citizens, and (I won't even go into the litany of offenses he has perpetrated on this world) is somehow morally equivalent to democracy and freedom because security is tougher to achieve (and security will be achieved) then I will never understand you. It is clearly right to free the oppressed and I no one will ever convince me otherwise. We are in the 7th inning of this game right now. And we are winning 7-3. You don't pack up your glove and bat and go home now. Another funny thing..... John Murtha the guy who said that America was behind him put up a poll on his website to see if his constituents agreed with him that we should pull out, and only 12% agreed with him... haha... he had to pull the poll of the site because 88% thought he was full of shit. It's politics, not reality... Have a great Turkey Day homie, I enjoy the debate!
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Nov 24, 2005 10:34:01 GMT -5
I enjoy the debate also... I completely understand what you're saying about the right and wrong thing, taking out a brutal dictator who murders people will never be wrong...the way it's done can be considered wrong. But that's up to each persons own determination. The right and wrong that I'm talking about is whether one country has the right in another part of the world to impose their way of governing. We all feel that freedom and Democracy is the only way to go, and it most likely is...but since the beginning of mankind, there have been thousands of different opinions on how we should rule or not rule ourselves. None of them have worked, and while our type is better than tyranical rule...there are still many problems(mostly based in greed and power struggles) that affect millions and little is being done about it. So while it's still philisophical to a degree, what right do we have to impose Democracy in a part of the world that wants nothing to do with it? Defense of our own people and country is important, and going into Iraq is still questionable as far as a defense issue. It goes back again to history and what the inevitable outcomes of attempts at 'world domination' have been. And the final problem with all this is, while we try to free the oppressed(as right as that may be)...it's an exercise in futility. A gov't and nation as big and strong as ours will be hated by the rest of the world, that's just the nature of the beast. As we attempt to free the oppressed, we unfortunately isolate ourselves further from everyone else. There are still many countries who have allied themselves with us, that is mostly a gov't decision though, made out of fear and necessary financial needs...the citizens feel less and less allied with us as time goes on. Making big decisions as to how we handle our international affairs need to be taken more seriously and thought out as to the collateral consequences. I'm afraid that the bottom line of money and power are the deciding factors far too often. As far as Murtha, he was a champion of the Repubs and this admin. until he spoke out against them. His mistake was how he worded it, to quick to make a headline statement and stupidity showed through. And of course calling for an immediate withdrawal is a minority request in the gov't and among the citizens...it's not practical. Anyway, enjoy much good food and have a fun day. The smells coming from my kitchen right now are un-believable... #drooling# Unfortunately I have to go spruce up the yards before company from Cali and elsewhere start showing up. ;D Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Nov 26, 2005 12:51:28 GMT -5
You make sense that what we are doing is alienating some countries, but most of those like France and Germany have never been warm to us. France has always been against every move we make. But I thnk you are wrong that Iraqis do not want Democracy, most do. Look at all those blue fingers dude, and now the Sunnis are getting on the ball. news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051126/wl_nm/iraq_sunnis_dc_1;_ylt=Av3VDwwzRJk5nXQ7NDbSRktX6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUlThe one thing that is true is that the war could have been conducted better. But I don't think there has ever been a war you couldn't say that about. I will talk to you in 5 - 10- 20 years and I truely believe, if our leaders have the will to stick out, history will say that this struggle we are going through now will being paying big dividends down the road, for both for us, the Iraqis and the entire Middle East. At the same time I sure hope the Government is keeping a good watch on terrorist's who have the will to attack us here. But I think just keeping it in their faces lowers the chance of that happening, but you know how motivated they are.
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Dec 9, 2005 21:37:06 GMT -5
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Dec 10, 2005 10:17:14 GMT -5
Going back to your previous post also... I'm sure that most of the citizens of Iraq do want Democracy, my point earlier was that the majority of the gov'ts in the middle east don't want it... therefore the battle they will have keeping it alive once we leave will be a hard one. But if it does work in the long run, they will be glad and appreciative for it. We do know even here though that the citizens voice even in a Democracy is very quiet compared to what the gov't actually wants and does. But anytime members of Al Qaida are caught or killed, it's a victory. I still say they need to do what Stern says(you know as much of a pig as he is, he makes a lot of sense sometimes)... start building strip clubs and dropping boxes of porn in the middle of the insurgents hold-outs. They may bitch and condemn it for awhile, but a lot of those would be suicide dudes might decide that the western infidels have the right idea. 'Too much fun to be had to be blowin' myself up'... #ohgoon# Much as that sounds reasonable, they're far from it unfortunately... Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Dec 10, 2005 14:34:28 GMT -5
Hey Seth, what up chum? news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051210/ap_on_go_co/lieberman_demsThis article more than any I've read in a long time, sums up what I think the Democrats are doing. They are undermining this country to gain a political advantage. They have no message other than quit and retreat before the job is done. And the only reason they are sounding this message is for political gain. They still say things like Bush has no plan, even though the plan is very clear. Train Iraqi Troops to take over their own security, enable Iraq in setting up their fledgling democratic government, Help to rejuvinate their economy etc. and they just want to pound their little meaningless, spineless message of We can't win (Dean), We're terrorizing women and Children in the middle of the night (Kerry), We're targeting civilians for assasination (Kucinich), The president lied to the country (They almost all said the same thing and voted for military action (hypocritical crap), Our military is broken, worn out and living hand to mouth (BS from Murtha) their is no plan ( chime in on it everyone!! obviously a plain lie) True it has been a tough go, but the fact is, we are winning, the Iraqi's are participating in their new Government, they have a new constitution to protect the citizens, they will elect their first full government under this new constitution, they are building a stronger and stronger military to protect the citizens from the terrorists, Saddam is rotting in jail along with his thug buddies and will soon meet the fate he deserves, and our troops will come home to a greatful nation within a year or so and the those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice will have a grand legacy, a tribute to them in that they were the genesis of a free Iraq. All this in 2 1/2 years +1. And all the Democrats want to do is give in to Zarqawi and his statement that the US can be made to run, all for a political advantage. And before you say it, yes maybe the Republicans would do the same thing if they were in the Democrats shoes. It still doesn't make it right. If we had more principled people in our government like Joe Lieberman we'd be in a much better place. Heck even Howard Stern has a better idea than to cut and run! Haha!! I think that he has the right idea. Not with the porn per se, but to make the average Iraqi life better more fun and less prone abuse. Freedom and prosperity will do that, and with Democracy firmly in place they will get there, no matter what Syria and Iran want. They are so passe! Their current path will only lead those countries to eventual ruin. Go Army, Go Marines, Go Navy, Go Air Force!! Go IRaq!!~Woo Hoo!! OK I'm through ranting... Brett
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Dec 11, 2005 17:58:42 GMT -5
Well, let's just hope that once we leave... we don't forget about them like we seem to forget about the rest of the world. I don't mean the gov't as much as the typical citizens in our own little world, oblivious to how things are elsewhere. It seems to me that Korea and Vietnam(at least half of each) haven't faired so well after we left those conflicts. While there are many differences, war is war and the after affects usually aren't all that different. I'll be very surprised if Iraq ever has peace, the middle east is going to remain a mess for a long time...and they will be major targets as long as terrorism exists at all.
That doesn't all mean that we should not strive to help countries like this toward freedom, if it's feasible and certainly if we can do it with less loss to our country. I still think this was a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11 and a means to financial gains for certain people more so than the US trying to bring a better way of life to a country...but when it's said and done, hopefully the positives will outweigh the negatives.
As far as the Dems, I still don't think that berating the admin. for this war is spineless...there are tons of military people(politicians and otherwise) who have issues with the way things were done. They've seen war and for many of them, there is no justification for this one. I had a link somewhere I was going to post listing the politicians who've served vs. the ones who haven't. It's from a liberal source, but the facts were backed up and it said no more than when they served and what they were doing if they didn't. It is interesting, I'll try to find it.
Having said all that though, I'm just as disgusted with them as the Repubs. Been finally watching Jon Stewarts show after all the hype, and not only is it very funny(and deserving of it's accolades)... but he echoes many of my feelings on politics. Granted, he goes after the current admin. as much as any talk show host does...but holds nothing back on the Dems either.
Seth
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Post by marvthemailman on Dec 11, 2005 19:19:47 GMT -5
my avatar says it all, until we get someone with half a brain in office, this crap is going to continue once again, Bush is the devil!!
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Dec 13, 2005 10:37:27 GMT -5
hook line and sinker... ;D Marv VVVVVVVVV
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Dec 13, 2005 18:25:57 GMT -5
Well, he does think he talks to Jesus... that could mean that he's a false prophet, not much of a stretch from the devil himself ...and furthermore... Forget it, wrong thread...LOL! Seth
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