Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
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Post by Virtual Scott on Jul 7, 2005 21:42:39 GMT -5
Quick response: Corporate malfeseance, global military presence, faith based counter culture universal initiatives, pipelines for the world as long as we gots our oil stakes, the inability to admit all the recklessness and mismanagement, not to mention under-preparedness, is an understatement. I don't think things can get any worse, or more corrupt in any aspect. If you add up all the ill-gotten gains, controversial actions, errors in judgement, civilian (Iraqi) and US Solder casualities, the loss of military armaments and skillions of dollars in funding, the lies and deception that the entire campaign was founded upon and continues to foster this intense state of denial and self-delusion of the administration, well... we're back at asquare one, and it's still a mess. "But things are getting better...". They thought the same thing in Vietnam 5 years before the shit hit the fan, too. Ack!
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jul 7, 2005 23:18:01 GMT -5
The similarities between Vietnam and Iraq?
They were both wars...
and...
There is no comparison and any such notion is truely wack.
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Jul 14, 2005 18:46:45 GMT -5
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Sept 21, 2005 17:28:17 GMT -5
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Sept 27, 2005 9:30:43 GMT -5
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Sept 27, 2005 18:09:29 GMT -5
It's cool that they're taking these guys out, however...I would be more excited if there weren't 200 more ready to take his place. I guess that's my biggest fear or issue with terrorism, there's so damn many of them and they're so spread out. Partly why I wish we'd spend more time and money on securing our borders and preparing for responses to major attacks. Just because we haven't had one in awhile doesn't mean it won't happen.
In the meantime, take out as many of those whackjobs as possible while we're there.
Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Sept 27, 2005 20:05:41 GMT -5
I hear you on the border control... We need to do more more more... But I'm all for hunting them down and killing and incarcerating them and disrupting their funding, movement, ability to gather and organize. We saw the result of that... Pulled out of Somalia, gave them a moral victory, then allowed them to organize and gather in Afghanistan... Then Boom! They are crippled and we need to keep them that way, because they aren't going away in our lifetime, and by the way, they were around before our lifetime too. And I thank my lucky stars that I'm an American and that there are brave men and women who feel the same way and are willing to put their life on the line for me. They are doing a kick ass job. The fact is this no matter what the circumstances surrounding Iraq. Al Qaeda is there in numbers, that is the front on the war. And I still think installing a stable democracy in Iraq is one of the best things we can do long term to show Al Qaeda our resolve, deal them a serious defeat and eventually turn the populace away from radicalism and terrorism. It's a marathon not a sprint. But that's just me.... apparently I'm in the minority. WHAT UP SETH!! ? How ya doin homie?
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Sept 28, 2005 6:06:39 GMT -5
WHAT UP SETH!! ? How ya doin homie? I'm good, but tired and haven't been on-line a whole lot lately. Keep finding new and bigger landscaping jobs to do and with my wife working again(after 6 years.. ), I finally have some extra money to do them. It's looking real good in some spots, but I seem to concentrate on the places that still need something...probably never be done...LOL! Was reading your Progpower exploits, sounds like you guys had a blast. I'm stoked for the Opeth show, but bummed that Therion and Porcupine Tree are both coming around the same time... can't pull them all off. Good news is FW isn't, so I definitely won't miss them if/when they come through. How's everything in Cali-land? Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Sept 28, 2005 9:51:30 GMT -5
Therion was soooo excellent. I heard they had to cancel their Tempe show because of their bus breaking down.
Oh well...
Opeth wiill slay!
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Sept 28, 2005 18:32:35 GMT -5
Really? Guess I don't feel bad now... but sucks for everyone that was going. Been reading a lot about how great they are live.
You going to one of the Cali Opeth shows? About ready to put up a full review for the new album in their thread...won't be a bad one.
Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Oct 12, 2005 14:16:00 GMT -5
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Oct 12, 2005 20:39:15 GMT -5
True, they are insane...but worse, they're also very patient. Maybe more patient than we, as a country(not just the admin.) are. Still my biggest concern or issue with the war is whether or not in the long run it will have been worth the cost to us. I try to consider the good people of Iraq and how this may bebetter for them. But so many of them there and elsewhere will try so hard to undermine it... they may end up with more unrest. It is interesting though to read conflict among the ranks of Al Qaida...bunch of whackos all trying to see who's more 'extreme'.... Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Nov 15, 2005 14:52:49 GMT -5
Quotes for you to ponder.... They got better as time went by. Kerry being the biggest hypocrit Monday morning, politico of them all....Because now he claims that Bush lied, when he believed what everyone in the world believed, that Saddaam was a threat. The only one to blame? Saddam Hussein.
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by: -- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by: -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." -- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." -- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" -- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
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SethFWF
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
"Rattle your God damn head!"
Posts: 1,405
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Post by SethFWF on Nov 15, 2005 18:06:06 GMT -5
Kerry's no better than any other standard politician, they say what the people want to hear...or what lines their pockets and war chest faster. I don't think there were too many who really liked him as much as couldn't stand Bush. I'll be the first to say that he may have done a worse job, but he really would have had to work at it.
But when you get down to the brass nuts of it, I don't care if every single intelligence agency in the world said they had WMDs and were a threat....if you're the one pulling the trigger, if you're the one leading the charge, if you're the one sending thousands of Americans to die, if you're the one ready to spend a trillion dollars that could be spent on our people...then you damn well better check your facts better than this administration did. In order to do that, take a little more time before making a decision such as war...it was entered into far too lightly and quickly IMO. Nothing major would have changed had the inspectors stayed and did a thorough check a little longer.
Of course I still say nothing we do over there will ultimately solve anything. The small accomplishments we've made pale compared to the hornets nest we continue to stir. When I say small, I don't mean insignificant to the people... building schools and infrastructure is a big thing for them. But for many of them, instead of being thrown in a wood chipper by Saddam's henchmen... they'll get blown up on the street like the many thousands of Isreali's before them. As bad as it is with their gov'ts style of rule, we can only make it worse by sticking our beaks in. It sounds crazy that a country as great as ours can't have a positive affect, but conflicting gov'ts, religious and ideological views lead to more unrest when you force something down someone's throat. Has always been the case, and always will...especially in that part of the world.
And rushing into a full out war with little planning doesn't help, they end up with advantages they should never have. For instance, if we had launched a full out worldwide assault on Al Qaida for a couple of years before running into Iraq...imagine how much less interference we might have. And over that time we could have found a better way to deal with Iraq if it was still a problem, more planning...less problems.
Oh well, it's all hindsight and we still have to finish the job...I do hope(wish in one hand, shit in the other) that some lessons will be learned from this. Assuming they ever feel there was something they could have done better.
Seth
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Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
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Post by Shark Black on Nov 15, 2005 19:25:14 GMT -5
There is no way we rushed into anything, this thing was brewing and festering and for years and years, resolution after resolution. This was thought out. The intelligence justified it to almost everyone including all those democrats who voted for it. Look at Clintons and Albright's and the other's quotes, they all were in concensus that Saddam had to go, and did nothing. Bush did it. Hoo F'n Ray! Just now they are trying to politicize the war and it stinks.... Because they have no basis to say that Bush lied, because if he lied, they lied, so fuck em... Just pointing out the blatent facts that these weasels are playing politics by rewriting history at the expense of this country and it's armed services. And the money we are spending over there does and will help us over here, by being the genesis of democratic change in the region, and makeing the world a safer place. It's not that black and White, and if we have the will as free people in this world, and if Europe would get off their asses and realize this is their war too, modernizing the Middle East is inevitable. IT"S ALIVEEEE!!!! ;D
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