Space travel topic continued....

[SethFWF]

I've been thinking about this more with the shuttle and all, very relieved of course to not see a repeat of the last one.

But about our last discussion, you said something Bret that I had to think about:

"And as for our Space program, I support it fully. It's the only way out when this planet is over populated. And thats not so far off."

After thinking about that, it seemed to me like a very atheist comment. Now I have no idea really what your religious views are and don't expect you to tell us, but the overall thought of the earth becoming obsolete someday is quite atheist in a sense. Without going to far into the Bible, it is written that the 'earth was made to stand to time indefinite', and from other partial quotes that 'the meek shall inherit the earth', 'the righteous will posess the earth and reside forever upon it'...etc...

If there is a 'grand plan' for the planet and mankind i.e. if there's truth to what the Bible prophecies...then there's no need to worry about living on another planet or a space station somewhere in great unknown. Over population is a concern of course, but so are many other problems on the planet that man cannot fix...so our only hope is to have the planet brought back to it's original condition and purpose. IMO, we were not created to live anywhere else but earth. That's not to say we shouldn't be curious and strive to understand space, but I stand by my original stance that the gov't spends way to much money on space travel when there are so many human interests not being dealt with on mother earth.

Eh, just a thought...figure I could jump start the war room again... #duel# #box2#

Seth

[Shark Black]

It's not atheistic, it's just not being a defeatist. Throughout man's history we have been explorers. It's the last great frontier and I would never let any friggin belief in things we can never understand to keep me from dreaming and I don't think we should let it stop us from learning and exploring..

But yes I am not all that religious at all. I am an agnostic in the highest terms. Especially when it leads to defeatism and pessimissim and the snuffing out of the human spirit to learn and explore.

When the invisible man in the sky comes down and shows himself then maybe I will choose another path. But until then I will support a path that leads to the human race living in freedom and hopfully lasting peace. We need to continue to succeed in stretching the possibilities of our existence. When we walked on the moon the whole world stopped and cheered. No word written by any man on any piece of paper could ever stiffle my enduring optimism. And our exploration of space and the possibilities that lay beyond our earthly bonds is the perfect metaphor for the enduring spirit of mankind and the perfect metaphor a positive outlook. And we need a positive outlook, because without that we have already thrown in the towel. And to me throwing in the towel is shit... And what God wouldn't agree with that.

[SethFWF]

As pessimistic as I am about the current world conditions and the state of human nature, I'm quite optimistic about the ultimate and inevitable outcome of our race and planet. Our optimism comes from 2 different places though as I have absolutely no faith in man bringing these things about. But I respect your religious views 100%. I wouldn't ever put faith in anything written by man either, unless it was dictated from God. Belief in the Bible comes from faith that it is Gods word, not mans. My faith in the Bible comes partly from it's survival even though it's the most controversial book in history and has the most attempts at it's complete destruction. Plus from deep study, the prophecies have come true and are currently coming true as we speak.

I don't mean this to be some preachy thing, only an attempt to explain why something 'man' wrote should get such attention. Which is why I feel that the earth will be brought back to perfection along with the human race long before we would ever have to find another planet to live on.

But hey, I understand your eternal optimism a bit more now, and you may understand where mine and the polar opposite of it come from. My only complaint to God is(therefore the pessimism), why the wait?

Seth

[Sir Van Talvin]

I have no fear of this earth ever being in danger of overpopulation. Why? For two simple reasons:

1) Everybody -- and I mean EVERYBODY -- would have to purge themselves of any and all inclination to hurt/maim/kill their fellow man (ain't gonna happen).

2) Meteorological, geological, and celestial disasters will either have to stop happening or be 100% predictable and/or avoidable (ain't gonna happen).

The point is that people will die on massive scales due to forces we cannot prevail against. How can we stop a tsunami? A super-volcano, like the one underneath Yellowstone? An asteroid? A madman with nukes? Let's not kid ourselves nor bury our heads in the sand. We don't know when any of these things will happen, but we can be certain that they will happen.

sethfwf said:

That's not to say we shouldn't be curious and strive to understand space, but I stand by my original stance that the gov't spends way to much money on space travel when there are so many human interests not being dealt with on mother earth.

Your original stance is merely an oversimplification. Sometimes, Seth, I wish you could step back a little and see the forest rather than the tree. Does the gov't spend too much money on NASA and the space program? Absolutely (most of it in the form of waste)! But that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. As I've mentioned before, the space program lends itself to technological leaps and bounds, which in turn benefit us here on earth (much more than defense-related technologies, mind you).

We don't have to look at this as an either/or situation. We can spend oodles of money on the space program AND take care of our problems, too.

sethfwf said:

Eh, just a thought...figure I could jump start the war room again... #duel# #box2#

Oh yeah, man, this section is barely on life support. We need more contentiously opinionated people here to spice things up.

[BenMech]

raiderblack said:

It's not atheistic, it's just not being a defeatist. Throughout man's history we have been explorers. It's the last great frontier )

Actually, not true. The last great frontier is beneath us, Exploring Earth subterranean and DEEP aquatic regions. Most of what we think we know of the earth is a mere fraction of a decimal of a percent of what is there, seriously.

Btw, for Seth: Since when was that bible of yours not a work of fiction? It's a manual for enslavement political fokoffery, not a science tome.

[SethFWF]

mortansan said:

Your original stance is merely an oversimplification. Sometimes, Seth, I wish you could step back a little and see the forest rather than the tree. Does the gov't spend too much money on NASA and the space program? Absolutely (most of it in the form of waste)! But that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. As I've mentioned before, the space program lends itself to technological leaps and bounds, which in turn benefit us here on earth (much more than defense-related technologies, mind you).

We don't have to look at this as an either/or situation. We can spend oodles of money on the space program AND take care of our problems, too.

Oh yeah, man, this section is barely on life support. We need more contentiously opinionated people here to spice things up.

That's where my bitch is I guess, we're not taking care of our problems here. As long as the politicians are comfortable with their millions, their 3 homes, and the best insurance the gov't can buy, there's no concern for the rest of the country while billions are spent sending shuttles into space to see if they can return home without exploding. Where's our security while we spend probably 400 billion protecting Iraq?(now we're looking at 4 more years of that bullshit according to the Army). Mans inherent imperfection allows them justify ignoring the problems of the masses to satisfy the problems of the rich and powerful. But I do see some benefits other than building our 'death technology' in the space program. It's certainly not all wasted, but I still think the priorities of money spent in this country are way out of whack.

And yes, we absolutely need more action in this here Arena, more opinions make for great debates.

Seth

[SethFWF]

benmech said:

Btw, for Seth: Since when was that bible of yours not a work of fiction? It's a manual for enslavement political fokoffery, not a science tome.

It'll be a matter of opinion(educated or otherwise) for an undetermined amount of time yet as to whether it's fictional or not. We definitely don't and can't understand the facts of existance and what lies beyond, but the Bible was given to us as a guide to understand the 'why are we here', 'how did we get here', and 'why do we suffer' eternal questions. When scrolls have been found and dated correctly(always have to question that), and have specific details laid out about the earth, it's shape, it's suspension in the solar system and relation to the sun...etc, hundreds and hundreds of years before man could dream of physically determining these things...that helps to regard it as non-fiction. Of course many disputes about that will arise as well as against the other historical accuracies and prophetical accuracies. More and more though, geology and many other sciences continue to uphold what the Bible says discounting many of their long held theories.

Then of course there's the matter of faith, you either have it or don't. Me, being one of the most cynical people on the planet should be discounting everything in the book. But there's too much that makes more sense after much study than without it. Logic comes into factor, just as much as an atheist would say it's not logical to believe in God...it's also not logical to not believe in a higher intelligence. Along with many proofs in the Bibles writings, you can come to these conclusions.

Not for everyone though, as I know and respect.

Seth

[BenMech]

I think you know my complete disdain for bible thumpers and bible thumping by now, as they are indeed the folks purposefully destroying our country and the earth in general

[SethFWF]

I actually won't disagree with that, not completely anyway. Misinterpretation of the Bible and twisting of the core teachings has been a major plague on the planet. Just like the turning of peaceful Muslim teachings into radical extremism and a reason to kill in the name of God has done.

Again, not preaching...but this was all prophecied. False prophets, the deception of the entire world by 'false religion', and the eventual fall into complete worldwide insanity, hatred and war are all precursors to the other Revelation prophecies.

So while people over centuries have used religion and Bible thumping to bring down the human race, the original teachings of the Bible are not at fault. Unfortunately, what's happening is necessary before something is finally done about it.

Seth

[Shark Black]

Was there a prophecy having to do with dinosaurs and cromags?
Did God make prehistoric man almost in his image?
Or were they a mistake?
And what day did God create the Brachiosaurus?
And was it the wars in the 800's 1200s, 1500s 1600, 1700's 1800's 1900's or the ones now that are to procede the end of days? And what about those earthquakes!

And is nostradamus a prophet? How come he's not in the Bible.

And The Koran, boy thats a book that has been time tested yeah? It must be true. Oh yeah and that Torah thing too.

A that faith thing.... Pretty convienent don't cha think

I hope your not eating any pork ribs or shell fish. It's in the Bible ya know. That means no lobster for you.

hehe

[SethFWF]

Let's not forget how infantile our comprehension of everything is before we pretend to know anything about how or why a possible higher power did anything(sounds like a new Murpheys Law).

It's very pompous to assume that we know what happened and why millions of years ago. Our limited knowledge and science can't tell us anything, but the truths that continue to be shown from the Bible make more sense than we came from nothing and are heading nowhere.

Seth

[Shark Black]

So it makes a lot of sense that God would create this and just hang out somewhere and watch us from afar...

It makes a lot of sense that there is an invisible man who can hear your thoughts?

It makes a lot of sense that when the Bible was written all these magic wonders were happening, burning bushes, Blood to wine, Parting of seas... and now nothing?

It makes sense that there was this boat that all the animals were hoarded onto?

Now I am very humble in my belief that I know very little. But there are many streches in the bible that seem a lot more of stretch than the big bang.

Science has changed everything about how I we perceive our world.

[BenMech]

B-b-b-but Brett: you're using Logic and intelligence. I can't argue there.

Seth: you're a nice enough guy, but your blind devolution (and devotion) to the idea of a book of absolute histories and laws just for A Hunch is plain stupid, and irresponsibly childish.

[SethFWF]

It's hardly stupid and childish, on the flipside...I don't feel that someone's disbelief is stupid, perhaps uneducated and misguided. As I said, I would be the first to discount anything like this in a very cynical way...but for a good period of time I studied both sides of the issue and feel I'm not just going on a hunch and blind faith.

It also isn't so far fetched that the idea of God exists, religion in it's many forms has continued through the ages...the majority of people on earth believe in God. Yes, it can be said they're all blind and use God as a crutch...I've heard all that. And some do no doubt, some use God as a crooked money making machine...but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Also, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there.

I find it far more unlikely that there is no God and we appeared or evolved from nothing than we were created by a higher intelligence. Where did we get our intelligence?

Either way, to each his own...my point is not to convince anyone, only to defend my position as it relates to things like the Space Program.

Seth

[Shark Black]

Then I will go to the age old question... who or what created God.

either all this always was, if there is no beginning or it all started from nothing at some time.

So the existence of God is the same conundrum is it not?

It may or may not be true, but I refuse to let things I can have no way of knowing guide my actions, I will just go with what I know(as absolute fact), be the best person I can be, work the best I can with my fellow wanderers, try to add to the common good and see what happens...