The Pope.

[SethFWF]

He had over a quarter century as Pope, and a lifetime of service to the Catholic church...and did nothing for the betterment of mankind. I'm talking mankind in general, giving to people and speaking doesn't count...Bill Gates gives more money than anyone.

The world is a mess, and it gets worse....what has he done? He has no connection to God whatsoever, and it's getting old listening to this. Got nothing against him, he did his job...but I wish people could be less gullible and understand that he was just a man...no better or worse than any of us.

Seth

[BenMech]

Before the Neocons push their way through and make pronouncements;

You wanna reconsider how much HE was personally responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union and its bloc of Eastern European countries???

Plus, The RCC under his administration OFFICIALLY made amends for the inhuman damage it as an organization has caused to the Jewish world population.

I may not have love for any christian religion, but even I see what that man has done to change the world for a longterm good.

[SethFWF]

BenMech said:

I may not have love for any christian religion, but even I see what that man has done to change the world for a longterm good.

What long term good? I mean no ill will against the man himself, but Russia and the mideast are in worse shape than ever...so where is the long term good? One man cannot do anything to solve the worlds problems. Obviously our greatest minds in history haven't been able to do it, all of them combined can't.

My issue is with the church putting him(or anyone) on a pedestal as if he has an open line with God and can do wonderful works through him. Millions of people are blind to the obvious that he was a man and nothing more...flesh and blood like the rest of us. Hopefully nobody in this forum feels otherwise whether they're actually Catholic or not...if so I don't mean to offend. But again, realism and common sense should prevail in this and all situations.

Seth

[Shark Black]

SethFWF said:

The world is a mess, and it gets worse....
Seth

When people say this it really eggs my goat. ;D
This world is exponetially better than it used to be.
Go back 200 years and try living.
You'd be lucky to hit 40 years old.
Go back 400 years and you be lucky to hit thirty and even then you were a slave to someone.
The quality of life for most people on this planet has been improved in so many ways by science and the political environment is so much better. Wars used to rage across Europe, Asia, The Middle east and Africa. The world is a much more peaceful place my friend.

You just need to open yer eyes, and lay a little reason and relativity to what you see.

And maybe smoke Pot or something

[Sir Van Talvin]

SethFWF said:

What long term good? I mean no ill will against the man himself, but Russia and the mideast are in worse shape than ever...so where is the long term good?

Huh? Are you discounting the role he played in the democratic revolutions behind the Iron Curtain with the resultant ending of the Cold War? The scope of his role is debatable, but it blows my mind that the downfall of communism doesn't seem to meet your criterion of "long term good". As far as Russia and the Middle East, their problems are deep and culturally ingrained which requires the passing of generations and time to ultimately solve.

SethFWF said:

One man cannot do anything to solve the worlds problems. Obviously our greatest minds in history haven't been able to do it, all of them combined can't.

Neither one man nor a collection of the world's greatest minds will ever solve all the world's problems. Ain't gonna happen!!

SethFWF said:

My issue is with the church putting him(or anyone) on a pedestal as if he has an open line with God and can do wonderful works through him. Millions of people are blind to the obvious that he was a man and nothing more...flesh and blood like the rest of us. Hopefully nobody in this forum feels otherwise whether they're actually Catholic or not...if so I don't mean to offend. But again, realism and common sense should prevail in this and all situations.

I'm not Catholic, so you haven't even come close to offending me . He is a flesh-and-blood man with the same flaws and imperfections as anyone else. 'Nuff said.

---

: Rush: Carve Away The Stone

---

[SethFWF]

Shark said:

When people say this it really eggs my goat. ;D
This world is exponetially better than it used to be.
The world is a much more peaceful place my friend.

You just need to open yer eyes, and lay a little reason and relativity to what you see.

And maybe smoke Pot or something

This is where we will never see eye to eye, and this sad occasion with the Pope will bring it to the forefront...

From where you sit Brett, and from where I and the majority of us on this board sit...we can say that the world is a better place all we want. That is not realistic, even though we may not be the richest people on the planet...we're still very priviledged and live in one of the "peaceful bubbles" on the planet.

I challenge you to really look, and I mean ponder and meditate on the state of affairs across the globe...not only listen to the news...but put yourself there and feel the horror that the majority of people on the planet feel. It's far too easy to claim how wonderful things are when you have food, clothing, and shelter...and there are no bombs going off in your backyard. Allow yourself to feel the pain of children starving to death by the millions, or being blown to bits for political reasons they know nothing of. Not to mention how these children feel when the people they love, trust, and depend on for support turn on them and drown them in a lake, the bathtub, or slit their throats because they've become so deranged and desperate from life they can't be bothered with their kids.

Yes, it's a morbid picture...but that is reality. Not to mention the condition of the environment across the globe, close to 300,000 dead in one single earth movement and the weather is constantly becoming more volatile.

And I know the typical rebuttals to this and will continue to dispute them...that these things have always happened, and we only hear about them more with broader media coverage. I don't buy it, people are getting crazier and more desperate all the time because they can't survive, or their religion is telling them to do horrific things to innocent people. This goes back to the religious issue again that the farther we as a race get from perfection, the more imperfect we become. We absolutely cannot turn things around for the better, we're doomed to dominate our own kind to injury and death. That is the natural instinct of imperfect man as seen by the current social and political situations we're in.

As far as living longer, in Bible times people lived several hundreds of years. So yes, science has allowed us to prolong our lives from hundreds of years ago...but only so far. How much fun will it be when we hit our 70s and develope diseases that can't be cured and the general pain and discomfort of old age is nearly unbearable. I don't think that's a positive in the grand scheme of things.

That all may seem to some to be a bunch of doom and gloom with no basis in reality...but unfortunately that is far more realistic than believing things are getting better on the planet.

As far as smoking pot, I feel I did enough of that when I was younger...and much more booze. So that's not really an option anymore if I want to at least support and enjoy my family...which is the one joy that I do find worthy of continuing on. Well, that...listening and discussing great music, and debating things like this...odd as it may seem to gleem joy from that.

Seth

[SethFWF]

Sir said:

Huh? Are you discounting the role he played in the democratic revolutions behind the Iron Curtain with the resultant ending of the Cold War? The scope of his role is debatable, but it blows my mind that the downfall of communism doesn't seem to meet your criterion of "long term good". As far as Russia and the Middle East, their problems are deep and culturally ingrained which requires the passing of generations and time to ultimately solve.

I guess we need to establish what "long term good" means. I do tend to look at the bigger picture, so not finding the end of the cold war such a big deal makes sense for me. For one thing, we face an even bigger threat now IMO. Communism is not dead, and we are now facing it again with countries we've yet to deal with, along with that bigger threat of global terrorism. And Russia is no friend to the US, so in my version of "long term good"...they are still a threat or at least an accomplice to the bigger threat.

As far as Russia themselves, their economy and gov't are a mess...and the corruption in the ranks is widespread. That's no secret...but the extent of their illegal arms dealings and full collusion with the countries we're having the most problems with is not known. We're just finding out now how unreliable and incompetent our intelligence and the agencies that claim to have it are.

As far as the mideast, there's been nothing even close to "long term good" happening there since I've been around. It's a constant fog screen of "the road map to peace", and the inevitable crash and burn of any attempt at making things peaceful over there.

So again, my biggest issue with the Pope situation is the "higher power" position to which they exult him. I've been watching these cardinals and bishops going on and on about how he had such a wonderful connection to God, and could do such wonderful works through him... Where's the wonderful works in the grand scheme of things? After watching a fair amount about his life, I find that he was an extremely intelligent man, very well educated and with a love of physical activity making him a well rounded person. Likely a joy to even be around when he was younger just due to his knowledge and experiences. But he has/had no connection to God whatsoever, and did no wonderful works through him...and it bothers me to see these people on TV falling for this crap just like they have for all the idiotic evangelists.

Seth

[Sir Van Talvin]

Shameless Thread-drift Response!!

[glow=red,2,300]Seth,[/glow]
I should have clarified that "long term good" was more of a European thing than an Asian one. When I said that Russia and the Middle East have deep and culturally ingrained problems, I was tacitly acknowledging the improbability of associating any such notion of "long term good" with them.

I establish "long term good" as a concept that takes into account both the present situation and the foreseeable future (a "bigger picture", indeed!). Your "bigger picture", Seth, seems to look only at the present situation. No doubt the present situation is bad for a lot of folks across the globe, but a truly "bigger picture" takes into account the past (something Sharkie was onto), the present, and the foreseeable future. Granted, the "foreseeable future" is a rather blurry part of the "bigger picture", but we can compensate by using a sort of past-as-prologue method. An example of that would be comparing the early days of any country that implemented a democratic-style of government with checks and balances (VERY IMPORTANT--checks and balances!) with its present situation and applying that contrast as a prologue for countries that have recently implemented democratic-style governments (with checks and balances, of course). No instant gratification there! I would definitely say that it was for West Germany's and Japan's "long term good" that democracy was forced on them. How long did it take for those war-torn countires to go from bleak to bustling? Not instantly, that's for sure. It was also for East Germany's "long term good" to be absorbed by West Germany, and although we know it's coming, we haven't yet seen the fruition of that, have we?

Oh, by the way, the people of Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Poland, Ukraine, and most certainly Germany would quite likely disagree with your assertion that the end of the Cold War was not a big deal. So can those of us who were very aware of the "Doomsday Clock".

I don't agree that the threat of terrorism is worse than the Cold War because I happen to think that mutually assured destruction (M.A.D.) does a lot more damage than a dozen or so terrorist WMD's slipping through the cracks. The real danger that terrorism poses comes more from its psychological effect than its actual physical effect. That's why it's called terrorism; it's all about fear. After 9-11 people were afraid and psychological affected, but was it the end of the world? Of the United States? Of New York State? Of New York City? Of Manhattan? Of course not! The events unfolding today are a testament to our resilience--a resilience we didn't even know we had until it was put to the test.

[SethFWF]

"I establish "long term good" as a concept that takes into account both the present situation and the foreseeable future (a "bigger picture", indeed!). Your "bigger picture", Seth, seems to look only at the present situation. No doubt the present situation is bad for a lot of folks across the globe, but a truly "bigger picture" takes into account the past (something Sharkie was onto), the present, and the foreseeable future."

On the contrary, my "bigger picture" includes far more than the present, it's more of the forseeable and beyond future as well. While not trying to predict the future which is futile(although if we're discussing it in a religious sense, there's much to be seen based on prophecy), my point is that the end of the Cold War does not in any way assure or even pretend to give us a better future or long term success as a race. The past IMO has nothing to do with the future other than we haven't learned from any of the past mistakes and history often does repeat itself.

"An example of that would be comparing the early days of any country that implemented a democratic-style of government with checks and balances (VERY IMPORTANT--checks and balances!) with its present situation and applying that contrast as a prologue for countries that have recently implemented democratic-style governments (with checks and balances, of course). No instant gratification there! I would definitely say that it was for West Germany's and Japan's "long term good" that democracy was forced on them. How long did it take for those war-torn countires to go from bleak to bustling?"

Those are good points, but don't go as far as my view of long term or beyond the forseeable future goes. My logic while a bit philisophical takes into account the question of "where the hell are we going with this, and what lies ahead for our great, great grandchildren...did the Pope or anyone else by helping end the Cold War, trying to make peace in the mideast, or prodding other countries to accept democracy do anything for them?" The answer is of course a resounding NO, which is where I have my issue and where I disagree that any man or men will make the world better for anymore than a brief moment. A moment ended immediately(long term time table) by other men. Those other countries likely feel more comfortable, but in reality the Cold War isn't even over...neither is Communism as I stated.

"I don't agree that the threat of terrorism is worse than the Cold War because I happen to think that mutually assured destruction (M.A.D.) does a lot more damage than a dozen or so terrorist WMD's slipping through the cracks."

That fear of nuclear war was also a form of terrorism, but while those were more political fears, we now have religion based terrorism as well as political. Smaller scale, yes...but no less dangerous as the world continues to change and is forced to become more radical to deal with it. The escalation of this seems to be underestimated by many.

"After 9-11 people were afraid and psychological affected, but was it the end of the world? Of the United States? Of New York State? Of New York City? Of Manhattan? Of course not! The events unfolding today are a testament to our resilience--a resilience we didn't even know we had until it was put to the test."

I agree there is a resilience here, but 9/11 was mearly the spark that started this whole thing...certainly nothing that could bring a civilization to it's knees. But having only discussed the political and war issues facing mankind barely scratches the surface of the point of my original post. Why if someone had a connection to God and was so powerful did he not solve many of the other problems we face? Whatever our own version of "long term good" is, in the grand scheme of things...our problems are compounding not getting better.

Seth

[Sir Van Talvin]

SethFWF said:

But having only discussed the political and war issues facing mankind barely scratches the surface of the point of my original post. Why if someone had a connection to God and was so powerful did he not solve many of the other problems we face?

I hope you realize I never disagreed with you here. I've already established myself as a non-Catholic who sees no solving of the world's problems by any one man or collection of men (or women, you feminists out there ). So, as a non-Catholic, I NEVER bought into the idea of a pope as an apostle or mediator on mankind's behalf. The pope's power is purely political. He's not a miracle worker nor does he have a superior connection to God nor is he infallible (gasp! ).

Now if you're wanting all the world's problems to be solved.....well.....do you believe in Armageddon?

[SethFWF]

Sir said:

I hope you realize I never disagreed with you here. I've already established myself as a non-Catholic who sees no solving of the world's problems by any one man or collection of men (or women, you feminists out there ). So, as a non-Catholic, I NEVER bought into the idea of a pope as an apostle or mediator on mankind's behalf. The pope's power is purely political. He's not a miracle worker nor does he have a superior connection to God nor is he infallible (gasp! ).

Now if you're wanting all the world's problems to be solved.....well.....do you believe in Armageddon?

No, I realize in many ways we're on the same page about topics like this. I do have a very negative outlook on the world and get chastised for it regularly here, but I really feel it's more realistic than many others views. I can look at someone like the Pope and regardless of how educated and intelligent he was, or how instrumental he was in bringing about positive political reform...all of his accomplishments mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. As one problem gets solved(or covered over temporarily), dozens more pop up that are leading us down the same path regardless.

The church has bamboozled so many people that it irritates me I guess, that they follow blindly thinking that he really is/was appointed by God to do great works. Listening to these other officials speak about him is almost comical. And I still don't have anything against him directly even though he was in the same position as those others...deceiving the masses. When people see a frail old man, they feel compassion and it's understandable...but he was still a tool of a pagan money making machine that does more bad for the world than good...IMO.

As far as Armageddon, I of course believe in it's imminence...you may have read back in the religion thread mine and everyone else's thoughts on the fate of mankind and the planet with a "no God" scenario, and then a "with God" scenario. It gets a bit deep when you start talking about the bible and it fizzled out...which I understand as most don't like to get that much into it.

So while I may be terribly negative, I have positive views of the ultimate outcome of this game we call life. It's still hard for me to look at the current conditions and be positive though, and I'm sometimes tempted to curse God for allowing it to go on for so long.

Seth

[ProgRocker]

I agree, Seth. It's extremely ridiculous. People like to attribute the fall of communism to the Pope and to Reagan, when in reality neither of them had much to do with it.

The other day I saw people on TV praising the Pope for being "the first Pope ever to enter a synagogue". Woo-fucking-hoo. It must have taken a shitload of effort. You know, for a less-than-mediocre person, it takes no effort to visit a synagogue and be nice to the jews. Yet somehow when the Pope does, we praise him for being so incredibly wonderful. Let's not lose perspective here. It's not the Pope that's wonderful for being somewhat nice to other religions. It's the previous popes that were total assholes.

Plus he opposed feminism, abortion, and birth control, which negates whatever few nice things he might have done.

[SethFWF]

Good points, I had forgotten that I also saw something about that "entering the synagogue" thing. It seemed very egotisical and hypocritical, almost like Jesus entering the homes of sinners.

At the same time, I'm trying not to bag on the guy himself...mostly because he's dead. But we still go back to the same issue of religion sticking it's nose in politics. I don't know what exactly European or Asian countries "constitutional" stand on this is...obviously it's a corner stone of ours that they should not mix. So it's still beyond me why the Vatican was ever involved in any of those things when Jesus clearly stated that "his Kingdom was no part of this world", and that his "true followers would also not be involved". I know you don't believe in that, but for the sake of this discussion...it still shows their lack of understanding as to where their place is.

So back to the original topic...if the Pope was instrumental at all in any political issues, he and the church were not serving God and therefore their actions fix and mean nothing in the ultimate progression of the human race.

Seth

[Sir Van Talvin]

SethFWF said:

I do have a very negative outlook on the world and get chastised for it regularly here...

What?
Who chastises you?
Is.....is.....is he referring to me?

SethFWF said:

So while I may be terribly negative, I have positive views of the ultimate outcome of this game we call life.

#cough# Bipolar disorder! #cough#
What? I didn't say anything!

[SethFWF]

Sir said:

What?
Who chastises you?
Is.....is.....is he referring to me?
#cough# Bipolar disorder! #cough#
What? I didn't say anything!

LOL! You haven't yet, but give it time...I can really grate on people with my pessimism...I want everyone to be as miserable as me!! Just kidding..

As far as the bi-polar, doubt that...just one feeling about mankind and the hideous things we do...and another about how God views us. Have to respect his view of life and what he intended and again intends for us. All IMO of course.

Seth