Iraq....

[SethFWF]

This crap seems to be on going...and for how long...

apnews.excite.com/article/20041205/D86PJ5BG0.html

Some of the points made that reinforce Bush Sr's view that going in there full bore would be a mistake...

"Gunmen ambushed a bus full of Iraqis working for the U.S. military, killing 17 civilians and wounding 13 in Tikrit on Sunday, while a car bomb and a gun attack killed four members of the Iraqi security forces elsewhere in northern Iraq.

The violence was the latest in a string of deadly attacks targeting Iraqi forces and others allied with the U.S. military that have killed at least 68 Iraqis since Friday. The surge in bloodshed has come despite major U.S. offensives last month to suppress guerrillas ahead of elections set for Jan. 30."

I'm sure many Iraqies are glad we're there, but there will always be the hatred and blame throwing at us...

"Many Iraqis have complained that the military onslaught against the city destroyed infrastructure and led to a deteriorated humanitarian situation in the city. Some 1,500 protesting Fallujah residents displaced by the fighting demanded Sunday that the government return them to their homes.

Officials had hoped the Fallujah assault would put the rebels on the defensive throughout Iraq. But the latest attacks showed they remain capable of hitting where they choose."

Can't help but still feel that a much better plan was needed...we wouldn't look like wimps if we had finished the job in Afgan. and waited till we had more support and a better exit strategy for Iraq.

Seth

[marvthemailman]

my avatar says it all, until we get someone with half a brain in office, this crap is going to continue

[Shark Black]

Yo Seth.

If we had finished the job in Afghanistan?

Things are going quite well in Afghanistan.

Taliban Routed, Al Qaeda neutered, Training Camps Shut down, A people freed, Women liberated, young girls allowed to go to school for the first time. Democracy and freedom installed. Kite Flying is now legal!

So I don't get that statement at all.

As For Iraq, it's a tough haul. But they will have their first Elections in January. The question will be if Iraq can build their own defense against these heinous barbarians. Time will tell. Their track record so far is a bit shakey. They need to do it, because we won't stay forever.

As for Fallujah, did you see what they found there? My Gawd we should have done that a long time ago. Zarqawi has be found and killed. I hope We or the Iraqi's get him soon. Maybe the people of Fallujah will find it better to join their fellow countrymen rather than to continue to fight.

In a few years, we'll see if the eternal pessimists and the Monday Morning QBs are correct or not. I've chosen not to be one of those. That's too easy.

[SethFWF]

You probably remember me saying several times that to a degree I'm on board with the Iraq situation. Most of us were at first, but in hindsight...we could have waited and been more prepared. I am glad the people there are liberated(at least from Saddam), but I still maintain that there was no immediate threat from them here in the US.

More monitoring of them would have been a better option while we continued to cripple Al Qaida more then we have so far. Afgan. may be on it's way, but I don't think it was necessary to spread ourselves so thin.

I'm not trying to be a monday morning QB...I'd be willing to bet that deep down GW, again in hindsight is wishing he'd done it differently. Quite sure he won't admit it though.

Seth

[Shark Black]

I think it's a givin that we we wish we did it differently to more effectively avert every problem we have faced. And givin the intellegence at the time, that Saddam had chemical weapons, that Saddam had Biological Weapons, That he was proceeding with nuclear ambitions, givin all that we thought we knew, he was a huge threat to the US. All the money he was getting from the UN oil for food program was funding terrorists in Isreal too. At a minimum he was huge threat in the region.

Like I say, tough situation, Bush made the call. In the end I'm hoping it was the right call. In the end I think it will prove to be the right call. I still think that getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do. I think he should have been taken out in 1991. He was a festering sore. The medicine wasn't working it was time for surgury. lol
The fact is if Bush didn't begin the push at the UN when he took office the world would have lifted sanctions on him and then where might we be.

Have a nice week homey!

[SethFWF]

You do the same...but this week sucks already... Shorthanded and all of a sudden real busy. I'm beat...but the OT always comes in handy before Christmas.

My main problem is still the massive loss of lives...not massive compared to many other wars, but still seems like to much for that conflict. I can't say I'm behind the prez, but I am behind the troops and really feel for those families. And I'm giving Bush a chance, just like before...I hope the domestic issues don't get crazy and Iraq starts to turn around.

I actually am a pessimist...damn if I can't help being negative about everything, but we'll see what happens...

Seth

[Chris Rifkin-Halcyon F5]

I will say this till I'm blue in the Face,but I really think we went after the wrong country
We should have hit Iran instead,as they ARE actively trying to not only make nukes but develop methods to deliver them.
They are also the #1 sponser of terrorism,and I would bet that Bin Ladden went there
Their people,especially the younger students,WANT us to liberate them.
While Iraq was a nucience,and Saddam had to go,we could have dealt with him after we got control of Iran(we could have paid Mossaad to assasinate him,and his sons,then,because we had troops on teh borders,we could have assisted Iraq in becoming a democracy
just my 2 cents

[PrinceVegeta]

Assasinate?? I think we did a great job at bombing the shit out of them LOL. But seiously yes, I believe we could have done better with our choice of president. What we should have done was protest our choices of presidents this time, because to be honest...Kerry was going to be just as stupid. So I think we as a country need to start showing we want better people.

Vegeta

[SethFWF]

Good point Veg.

Seth

[PrinceVegeta]

Spanks a ton.

Let me explain how Mexico runs their presidential politics. It's like this. Let's say the republican president in Mexico is campaigning again for his presidency, and so is the democratic candidate. Did you know that in Mexico someone else from the republican party can run as well?? Which means that the current republican president can be beat by someone else in the same party??

If you ask me we should have something like that in place. I swear this term was proof of that. It blew ass that we had to go with Bush and Kerry. There were better people in the Republican party that would have done a better job. Just as there were better people in the democratic party than Kerry....

Well anyway that is just a heads up on what it's like in another country, and how I wish it would have been that way here, this time, instead of how it was. Yes, I'm an avid non-Bush-supporter. Just as at the end I was a very avid non-Kerry-supporter. lol

Vegeta

[Gonzalo el Silenciado]

Shark said:

I think [Saddam] should have been taken out in 1991.

No. He should have been assassinated in 1988, when he sacked the Kurds. Reagan considered Saddam an ally and did nothing.

PrinceVegeta said:

Let's say the republican president in Mexico is campaigning again for his presidency, and so is the democratic candidate. Did you know that in Mexico someone else from the republican party can run as well?? Which means that the current republican president can be beat by someone else in the same party??

Silly Wetback. You're wrong on two counts here.

1) Mexican presidents serve one six-year term. That's it. They're consitutionally prohibited from serving more terms than one.

2) The current US Republican could have been taken out of running in the primaries. I know for a fact that there was at least one Republican running against him. But incumbents are usually incredibly popular, so much that the only way for them to not become the official party candidate would be to either say "i'm not running," or to refuse the nomination. I don't think that's ever happened.

NP: Dan Swano - Moonstower

[Shark Black]

That attitude sounds familiar.
"Saddam's Not A Threat To Us! He had No WMD"
He's only killing his own people at an alarming rate So we should do nothing.

Oh my... someone actually did something.

[SethFWF]

I think Rumsfeld said it all the other day, don't think Bush will add anything worthwhile tonight...I'm watching though.

But Rummy kinda came clean in a round about way, this insurgency and violence won't end for many years, maybe 10-15 which is why the elder Bush chose not to go in. I know there are many improvements over there, but we've still lost over 1700 Americans, and with no plan to leave(and no desire to even consider one) it will likely be much higher. We've spent hundreds of billions of dollars that could have been used to beef up our borders and overall security...and not one life lost. Sure we stopped the tyranny, but what about helping out our citizens with all that money and effort.

According to Rummy, we won't be responsible for stopping this insurgency...it will be in the hands of the Iraqies. These are the people who were supposed to be such a big threat to us(not the exact people of course), yet they couldn't put up even a half-assed defense on their own turf...they're stuck smack in the middle of the world headquarters of extreme Islam America haters...and they're supposed to defeat the millions of insurgent whackos pouring in there who are intent on defeating democracy? Why is it our job, lives and money that has to take their hand and lead them to freedom...again...what about us over here???

It simply wasn't worth the price for what ultimately is going to be a nightmare only slightly better than the one Saddam gave them. A lot of Americans are changing their tune on this war, they're seeing how costly it's becoming and when we finally leave...those people will be fighting an even more pissed off extremist group. It's time for America to take care of America from the inside...enough of this bullshit with the rest of the world...where has it gotten us ultimately?

Seth

[Shark Black]

sethfwf said:

I think Rumsfeld said it all the other day, don't think Bush will add anything worthwhile tonight...I'm watching though.

But Rummy kinda came clean in a round about way, this insurgency and violence won't end for many years, maybe 10-15 which is why the elder Bush chose not to go in. I know there are many improvements over there, but we've still lost over 1700 Americans, and with no plan to leave(and no desire to even consider one) it will likely be much higher. We've spent hundreds of billions of dollars that could have been used to beef up our borders and overall security...and not one life lost. Sure we stopped the tyranny, but what about helping out our citizens with all that money and effort.

According to Rummy, we won't be responsible for stopping this insurgency...it will be in the hands of the Iraqies. These are the people who were supposed to be such a big threat to us(not the exact people of course), yet they couldn't put up even a half-assed defense on their own turf...they're stuck smack in the middle of the world headquarters of extreme Islam America haters...and they're supposed to defeat the millions of insurgent whackos pouring in there who are intent on defeating democracy? Why is it our job, lives and money that has to take their hand and lead them to freedom...again...what about us over here???

It simply wasn't worth the price for what ultimately is going to be a nightmare only slightly better than the one Saddam gave them. A lot of Americans are changing their tune on this war, they're seeing how costly it's becoming and when we finally leave...those people will be fighting an even more pissed off extremist group. It's time for America to take care of America from the inside...enough of this bullshit with the rest of the world...where has it gotten us ultimately?

Seth

[Shark Black]

Quote , Seth: Why is it our job, lives and money that has to take their hand and lead them to freedom..


Because that's what we do....

God Bless America