"The Arch material doesn't fit ..."

[journeytoarcana]

The Arch material doesn't fit in with what they are dong today

Yes, to some extent this is true. If Fates Warning came on stage and played half of Night on Brocken, half of The Spectre Within and then closed with "Valley of the Dolls" (and played nothing else), I think you would have a lot of of upset fans. Myself included. Oh sure, Harry the gas station attendant sipping Budweisers in the corner may have had a blast at the show, but Fates Warning's catalog has always been one of variety, tempo changes, mood changes, and epic constructs that defy standards. This is what progressive music should be, and for the mid to late 1980's, Fates Warning's music accomplished all of that.

Arch's vocals have been criticized as being too "high nasally" for Ray's approach. And, had Ray debuted on No Exit sounding like Lee Dorian or Phil Anselmo, then I might buy that argument too. Ray's vox has been lower in recent years (Disconnected tour ...) but Fates Warning wasn't eliminating the old songs in the live setting in 2000 ... they've been doing it since 1994, when Ray was probably at his peak vocally. This is a mystery I will address shortly.

Ray conveyed certain Arch tunes very effectively, most notably "Damnation", "Epitaph", "Exodus", "Fata Morgana", and "Guardian", which are just as "progressive" as anything they've done since the early 90's (and some feature Arch's lower register, particularly the slower tracks). The old fans aren't screaming for "Buried Alive" and "Orphan Gypsy", as these tunes are more consistent with the trends seen in power metal than with progressive music, but instead want an ode to older progressive material, long before Dream Theater's watered down music became a household name (haha ... I have to make fun of Dream Theater in at least one of my posts).

In short, to say that none of the Arch material fits in with what they are doing today is an ignorant comment coming from people who probably don't own and definately haven't listened to those albums. They have moments that reflected the direction Fates Warning headed in, and are considered by many to be the classic standards of the progressive metal movement.

[morgoth]

Upset fans?!?!?!?!?
The sole reason I won't pay another cent to see them live anymore is because they fail to play any of my favorite songs...namely "The Apparition", "Prelude To Ruin" or "Guardian".
I'm certainly not the only one that feels that way. They would have quite a few happier fans if you ask me, and a larger concert attendance.
Iron Maiden not playing "Running Free" and "Wrathchild" with Bruce Dickinson because it "doesn't fit" their current style of music would be just as absurd, but hey, maiden does it..why? Because it's STUFF THEIR FANS WANT TO HEAR!

[SethFWF]

How did I miss this thread?? And good points made in both posts so far, although I will still see them live if they come through here...hopefully soon... #praying#

When I have a bit more time this weekend, I have some thoughts to input also.

Seth

[static axe]

I have seen Ray sing Fata Morgana twice and it amazing both times. It fight right along side of Part of the Machine.

[morgoth]

staticaxe said:

I have seen Ray sing Fata Morgana twice and it amazing both times. It fight right along side of Part of the Machine.

Agreed! I've seen Fates a number of times live, and recall Ray singing various tracks from the first 3 albums, and they sounded great, and fit right in....and everyone's happy!

[cyclopssss]

I thought the version they did of 'prelude to ruin' on Still Life pretty fuckin' kicked ass!

[Virtual Scott]

Well, considering JIM feels the exact same way, if I am not mistaken he mentions this whenever asked, however hesitant he is to discuss old, especially VERY OLD FW, I don't think it's an ignorant statement at all. I will agree and say that when Ray sings the older material it sounds better and has a more contemporary approach, but the song composition and structure and even style, is very retrospective and, well, outdated to a degree.

Comparing FW to Maiden is an old ploy, and one that the "new" Jim probably wouldn't dig upon. It's really his discretion what to play and not play, and damn, considering it's really HIS band, you have to respect his opinion. Afterall, he's the guy who wrote most of the songs, and I'd rather not hear him to a half-assed, uninspired mock up of those songs (which I don't much like anyhow, full disclosure), which is why they don't play those tracks.

Don't hate the player, hate the game (especially outdated game.)

[guardian]

lame. I was bored as hell the last show they did that I attended. What a disappointment. I love a lot of their new songs, sure. but as a fan, I want to and need to hear their classic songs too. Perhaps the recent album sales and concert attendance figures might change Jim's mind then.
The Maiden comparison above is exactly how most long time FW fans feel. A good majority of FW fans I know LOVE their old albums just as much as their new. The poll #'s of "favourite album" on here should indicate that. It's nice to please yourself as a band and an artist, but it would be nice to consider pleasing your fans as well.
The ARCH material FITS.

[Virtual Scott]

Fates Warning sell more CD's than they ever have before, with Ray in the Band. In my opinion people need to just deal with reality and accept Jims decision, and respect it, even if they don't agree with it. It's an entirely different band NOW than they were pre-Alder. I think it's safe to consider Fates have many more Ray fans although I think many fans, as well, like BOTH, but the Alder-era has much more relevancy and support.

I'll have to say I don't think the Arch-era stuff fits. It's almost anachronistic in fact. But that's just my opinion on the subject.

[journeytoarcana]

I'll have to say I don't think the Arch-era stuff fits.

Blanket statements. These don't work in the real world, Scott, how come they always pop up in yours? Many tunes from the Arch era do not. "Exodus" and "Epitaph", on the other hand, do fit. So does "Guardian", now that I think of it.

It's almost anachronistic in fact.

Ah ... yes. "Almost anachronistic ", eh? Showing some signs of capitulation, are we?

The only reason time was invented was to prevent all the events in history from happening at once. My perception of Fates Warning being anachronistic would be if they didn't follow a chronological order in the setlist, and instead jumped around from songs on Disconnected, and then to Parallels, and then to Perfect Symmetry, finally ending with a song or two from Inside Out.

Silly me.

Furthermore, since the early material allowed them to expand and grow on each album, it would be considered anachronistic to ignore the early material (ie- "Damnation" gave birth/influenced "Epitaph" which gave birth/influenced "Prelude To Ruin", which gave birth/influenced "The Ivory Gate of Dreams" and so forth), since it is derived from the Greek word "khronizein", meaning "to take time".

However exactly that fits into the argument.

[BenMech]

journeytoarcana said:

Furthermore, since the early material allowed them to expand and grow on each album, it would be considered anachronistic to ignore the early material (ie- "Damnation" gave birth/influenced "Epitaph" which gave birth/influenced "Prelude To Ruin", which gave birth/influenced "The Ivory Gate of Dreams" and so forth), since it is derived from the Greek word "khronizein", meaning "to take time".

I'm baffled here. Explain how.

[Virtual Scott]

What? Just because I don't agree with you my comments become blanket statements? That was my opinion, merely my own words. Suffice to say, your opinion would be considered a blanket statement as well? I think you yourself are using personal generalizations and semantics, while avoiding actually responding to my rationale behind my comments. No use in intellectualizing it, and as I stated in my previous opinions, old (including, to a degree, No Exit) FW is dated and to my ears, they are anachronisms, sonically. That is, their sound belongs (and is very related to) another time.... ie, they SOUND dated. Merely my opinion. That said, Inside Out and most post-Parallels FW still sounds fresh (and the sonic quality is great, stands the test of time, up to THIS current date) and relevant.

[guardian]

virtualscott said:

Fates Warning sell more CD's than they ever have before, with Ray in the Band.

I'd bet money that the Awaken The Guardian re-issue sold more copies than their last 2 releases have.

virtualscott said:

In my opinion people need to just deal with reality and accept Jims decision, and respect it, even if they don't agree with it.

bullshit. I'm a long time fan, and I want to hear old songs as well as new at their shows, or I'll stay home!

virtualscott said:

I think it's safe to consider Fates have many more Ray fans although I think many fans, as well, like BOTH, but the Alder-era has much more relevancy and support.

I wouldn't say that. Most of the forums I visit, and people that I know personally, and from around the world online as well all recognize the earlier era Fates stuff at the drop of a dime when I mention this band, that is, those that have ever even heard of them to begin with. Also, take a peek at the favorite FW album poll on this very site, that should give Jim a hunch at to what a lot of us want to hear. (then again, there aren't a lot of us on here to begin with, are there...)

[guardian]

P.S. Without the ARCH-ERA there would never have been a FATES WARNING. Someone should remind Jim of that then, and yourself, as JA is one of Ray's biggest inspirations.

All I'm saying here, is as a long time fan, it's not much to ask, not much at all, to want to hear some of their earlier GREATS. That's what would make not only myself, but droves of other Fates fans to attend their shows again in the future.
But word on their setlist ignoring a good majority of their fans on their next tour, I can guarantee I'll save my $.

[Virtual Scott]

Well, that's all your perogative. To stay home if they aren't playing the songs you like, or to not purchase the CD's if they don't feature John Arch. There's no question FW have had their most success as well as their best selling CD's with Ray in the band. I presume if they continued with John Arch they would've either 1. broken up, or 2. been dropped. He's a good singer, yeah, but a very prototypical 80's power metal sound. Even his newer stuff, sounded very 80's (granted, with better songwriting and production, thanks Jim.) Suffice to say, Jim makes the final decision so you really shouldn't be taking up sour grapes with me. I just agree with his decision, then again, like you and everyone else, I have my biases, I just don't LIKE the Arch-era stuff. And I don't think the re-issue of ATG sold more than either D or FXX. I doubt that.

Well without Alan Atkins there would never be a Judas Priest, without Charlie Dominici there would never be a Dream Theater, without Al Gore there would never be an internet, etc. I don't like these type of assertions, they really don't say much. But... Anyhow... onward!