Iraq: All now know that Abate was right in 2001.

[Abate]

I challenge anyone to go back and dig up the old posts. Some of us don't need hindsight, especially me. I'm posting to let everyone know that I have been right all along. What an absolute nightmare. I used to think that people who supported the war were doing it out of support for thier preferred party. Now I actually question the intellegence of anyone who still supports it. I know that people like Fox and Michael and whoever used to post such intellectually stimulating conservative views back in the day must look themselves in the mirror and feel embarrased. This thing has turned into worse than Vietnam. This is what you get when you have a president that relies on his 'gut' and not a brain. America deserves better, and so do real Republicans. It's time for smart government.

[Shark Black]

When you post lines like "this thing has turned into worse than Vietnam" it still shows how little you know even today. It shows how little you must know about Viet Nam. Viet Nam was a war. This is business as usual in Iraq. In 2001 I never could have comprehended the seditious nature of the American left, that would ultimately indermine a noble cause. I am disapointed in Rumsfelds running of the post war situation but the end to this story has not been written. Unfortunately it will probably end up like you hoped for all along. The hope that the USA will lose. And there's only one way we lose this war.... I can feel your pride buddy. Yay!!!!! ;D

[Fox]

The real solution was to go back to 1991 and remove Saddam then.

That didn't happen. Beyond that its pretty simple:
1. you either believe Saddam was a ok in defying the UN and everyone else
or
2. you believe Saddam was not ok in defying the UN or was just a genocidal maniac.

I personally don't care much for the UN, so i'm in catagory 2b.

That said UN is impotent. They're very good at giving warnings, very poor at pretty doing anything beyond that because by golly if you don't follow this warning, we are...and we mean this with all our bleeding hearts will follow that up with more warnings.

There are plenty of nations with genocidal maniacs leading them, my personal stance is ridding the world of them is a good thing. But its not necessary to do so.

Its foolish to argue that an American life is worth more than another (although that should be the case to those in government) because it is not.

As long as the military remains volunteer, its especially a moot issue.

That said the military did its job a long time ago. It removed Saddam, I do not know why we are still there, Iraq needs to take care of Iraq. If some asshole comes to power we can go back and remove him just as easily, certainly can't be any harder than what we're doing now.

Of course the real problem is Isalm, but that's another subject.

[Abate]

raiderblack said:

When you post lines like "this thing has turned into worse than Vietnam" it still shows how little you know even today. It shows how little you must know about Viet Nam. Viet Nam was a war. This is business as usual in Iraq. In 2001 I never could have comprehended the seditious nature of the American left, that would ultimately indermine a noble cause. I am disapointed in Rumsfelds running of the post war situation but the end to this story has not been written. Unfortunately it will probably end up like you hoped for all along. The hope that the USA will lose. And there's only one way we lose this war.... I can feel your pride buddy. Yay!!!!! ;D

How many more people can you walk off a bridge, bro? We need people with intellect who don't trust their 'gut' when putting people in harms way.

The fact that you responded with 'noble cause' shows how much more you must know about Vietnam than me.

How long will you stay asleep?

(alarm keeps going off....)

[Abate]

Fox... I agree with most of what you said about the UN, but its eons away from an excuse as to why we are in Iraq right now. We need accounatibility and not excuses from people entrusted to make decisions. That said you make a good point.

[BenMech]

::gulp::

I agree with Steve too.
Must be the wife rubbing some smarts into him.

[Shark Black]

I agree with him too, except I think we should stay another year or two to finish the friggin job right. I agree with Talibani. Nothing like the horses mouth.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061102/ts_nm/iraq_france_talabani_dc_4

We have to ensure that the present government can handle the security situation when we begin to pull out. And I have no doubt that if we continue propping them up and also, if the world would get off their asses as well and support them, they will be successful. If we would have pulled out right after deposing Saddam there would have been a huge power vacuum.

And yes it is noble to free a people and help them rebuild their society after years of oppression. They are still fighting those same oppressors today, minus their powerful figurehead.

Oh yeah and... I'm also saying that just like John Kerry's remarks (his timing couldn't be any better) certain elements within the US have sabbotaged the effort. Just like France did to us in 2003 when they were protecting there oil rights with Saddam and hiding their complicity in the Oil for Food scandal.

There's a bigger picture here...
Nothing like giving up 5 feet from the finish line....

[Shark Black]

ABATE KNEW MORE THAN EVERY DEMOCRAT!!

Saddam Gone = Good! Ask the Democrats!! I'm ready for these two faced suckas to take charge!
Go ahead Read On I dare you! IT's Hilarious!!!

October 9th, 1999 Letter to President Clinton Signed by Senators Levin, Lieberman, Lautenberg, Dodd, Kerrey, Feinstein, Mikulski, Daschle, Breaux, Johnson, Inouye, Landrieu, Ford and Kerry -- all Democrats

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions, including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."


Joe Biden > August 4, 2002
"This is a guy who is an extreme danger to the world, and this is a guy who is in every way possible seeking weapons of mass destruction."



Chuck Schumer > October 10, 2002
"It is Hussein's vigorous pursuit of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, and his present and future potential support for terrorist acts and organizations that make him a danger to the people of the united states."



John Kerry > January 23, 2003
"Without question we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator leading an impressive regime. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he's miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. His consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction."



Sandy Berger > February 18, 1998
"He'll use those weapons of mass destruction again as he has 10 times since 1983."



Senator Carl Levin > September 19, 2002
"We begin with a common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."



Senator Hillary Clinton > October 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock. His missile delivery capability, his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists including Al-Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."



Madeleine Albright > November 10, 1999
"Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."



Robert Byrd > October 3, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of '98. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons."



Al Gore > September 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."



Joe Biden > August 4, 2002
"I think he has anthrax. I have not seen any evidence that he has smallpox, but you hear them say, Tim (Russert), is the last smallpox outbreak in the world was in Iraq; ergo, he may have a strain."



Bill Clinton > December 17, 1998
"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq.... Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."



Hillary Clinton > October 10, 2002
"In the four years since the inspections, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program."



Dick Gephardt > September 23, 2002
"(I have seen) a large body of intelligence information over a long time that he is working on and has weapons of mass destruction. Before 1991, he was close to a nuclear device. Now, you'll get a debate about whether it's one year away or five years away."



Russell Feingold > October 9, 2002
"With regard to Iraq, I agree Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction: chemical, biological and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the president argues."



Johnny Edwards > January 7, 2003
"Serving on the intelligence committee and seeing day after day, week after week, briefings on Saddam's weapons of mass destruction and his plans on using those weapons, he cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons. It's just that simple. The whole world changes if Saddam ever has nuclear weapons."



John Kerry > January 31, 2003
"If you don't believe...Saddam Hussein
is a threat with nuclear weapons, then
you shouldn't vote for me."



Bill Nelson > September 14, 2002
"I believe he has chemical and biological weapons. I think he's trying to develop nuclear weapons, and the fact that he might use those is a considerable threat to us."



Al Gore > September 23, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."



Tom Daschle > February 11, 1998
"The (Clinton) administration has said, 'Look, we have exhausted virtually our diplomatic effort to get the Iraqis to comply with their own agreements and with international law. Given that, what other option is there but to force them to do so?' That's what they're saying. This is the key question. And the answer is we don't have another option. We have got to force them to comply, and we are doing so militarily."



Bill Richardson > May 29, 1998
"The threat of nuclear proliferation is one of the big challenges that we have now, especially by states that have nuclear weapons, outlaw states like Iraq."



Hillary Clinton > October 10, 2002
"It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capability to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."



Al Gore > December 16, 1998
"f you allow someone like Saddam Hussein to get nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, chemical weapons, biological weapons, how many people is he going to kill with such weapons? He has already demonstrated a willingness to use such weapons..."







Bill Clinton > February 17, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace, and we have to use force, our purpose is clear: We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."



Madeleine Albright > February 1, 1998
"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and the security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."



Nancy Pelosi > December 16, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."



Al Gore > September 23, 2002
"We know that he has stored nuclear supplies, secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."



John Kerry > October 9, 2002
"I will be voting to give the president of the US the authority to use force if necessary to disarm Saddam because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."



Ted Kennedy > September 27, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."



Jay Rockefeller > October 10, 2002
"There was unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. We also should remember that we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."



Joe Biden > August 4, 2002
"[H]e does have the capacity, as all terrorist-related operations do, of smuggling stuff into the United States and doing something terrible. That is true. But there's been no connection, hard connection made yet between he and al-Qaida or his willingness or effort to do that thus far. Doesn't mean he won't. This is a bad guy."



Madeline Albright > February 18, 2002
Iraq is a long way from (here), but what happens there matters a great deal here, for the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest national security threat we face -- and it is a threat against which we must and will stand firm."



Jane Harman > August 27, 2002
"I certainly think (Hussein's) developing nuclear capability which, fortunately, the Israelis set back 20 years ago with their preemptive attack which, in hindsight, looks pretty darn good."



Dick Durbin > September 30, 1999
"One of the most compelling threats we in this country face today is the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Threat assessments regularly warn us of the possibility that North Korea, Iran, Iraq, or some other nation may acquire or develop nuclear weapons."



Bill Nelson > August 25, 2002
"[M]y own personal view is, I think Saddam
has chemical and biological weapons,
and I expect that he is trying to develop
a nuclear weapon. So at some point,
we might have to act precipitously."



Nancy Pelosi > October 10, 2002
"Yes, he has chemical weapons. Yes, he has biological weapons. He is trying to get nuclear weapons."



Evan Bayh > August 4, 2002
"I'm inclined to support going in there and dealing with Saddam, but I think that case
needs to be made on a separate basis: his possession of biological and chemical weapons, his desire to get nuclear weapons, his proven track record of attacking his neighbors and others."



Bill Clinton > February 17, 1998
"We have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st Century.... They will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein."



Hillary Clinton > January 22, 2003
"I voted for the Iraqi resolution. I consider the prospect of a nuclear-armed Saddam Hussein who can threaten not only his neighbors but the stability of the region and the world, a very serious threat to the United States."



Joe Biden > August 4, 2002
"We know he continues to attempt to gain access to additional capability, including nuclear capability."



Johnny Edwards > February 6, 2003
"The question is whether we're going to allow this man who's been developing weapons of mass destruction continue to develop weapons of mass destruction, get nuclear capability and get to the place where -- if we're going to stop him if he invades a country around him -- it'll cost millions of lives as opposed to thousands of lives."



Joe Biden > August 4, 2002
"First of all, we don't know exactly what he has. It's been five years since inspectors have been in there, number one. Number two, it is clear that he has residual of chemical weapons and biological weapons, number one."



Senator Bob Graham > December 8, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has and has had for a number of years a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."



John Kerry > February 23, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East."

[Abate]

Raiderblack:

I don't follow people off a bridge bro, Republicans or Dems. I think its a fact now (not an opinion) that Bush, albeit genuine, is also a genuine moron and the lack of oversight displayed by Congress (both parties) was akin to letting a four year old go to war. The difference is that the neocons stayed the course... right off a bridge. Flip flopping isn't so bad when your correcting a mistake.

Hopefully those neocons that still won't admit that the war was the worst foreign policy disaster in this country's history will continue to hold out so that we can replace them with Dems in '08.