Some thoughts for the Atheists...

[SethFWF]

My father in law passed away on Saturday night after fighting cancer for 2 years, it wasn't easy to watch a stocky guy at 6'5", 270 lbs. wither away to nothing toward the end. He was comfortable though and was surrounded by his loved ones, he made his peace and was ready to go...

But over the last couple weeks, his outlook on many things changed. I know some will say that facing death brings out a desperation of sorts that changes a person's heart, maybe makes them say and feel things that can be unreasonable. But we're talking about a guy who was a serious life long atheist, and in a perfectly reasonable state of mind(aside from the obvious), he began to pray, speak about God(one he never cared to know or believe in), and look at the end of his life much differently than ever before.

I think that many people in their younger and middle age years find it real easy to say..."this is all there is, there is no God, and when you die...that's the end of it". But when they get older and their mortality is facing them, the tune changes because human nature forces them to look beyond their death and also look back at how short their life really was. He was worried that he didn't lead a good enough life, wasn't a good enough person and wouldn't be welcomed into heaven. This coming from a guy who would scoff at anyone who brought up God or heaven. Of course, the heaven/hell thing isn't something I believe in...but when you're facing your last few days, it can become important to know or have some faith that there's something else waiting.

Just a thought, I still think we're far to ignorant of anything beyond our own little worlds to pretend we know there's nothing else out there, no grand design, no purpose for us after our 70 or 80 years is up.

On a different note, I don't think this is too far out of bounds on this board since many of us talk about or show off our creative sides. So I wrote him a poem about 2 weeks ago, it's gone over well with the family and will be printed on his memorial program and read at the service. Not by me, not in front of the masses that will be there. It might help to know that he was a pilot most of his life and really loved flying. He also was an amazing mechanical craftsman, my wife is inheriting his dads '58 Chevy Belair which is in absolute mint condition and he also has a couple Chrysler muscle/hotrod cars that are perfect...his friends who helped him with those will show them and whatever they want. He was also remarried, so his widow is my wife's stepmom.

Richard...

We wish right now, that we were singing a different tune...
But unfortunately, you were taken from us far too soon.

So many of us have gathered to say goodbye...
To remember, to mourn, and to cry.

Your friends are here, and great stories they will tell...
You left a deep impression, wherever your footsteps fell.

Your family is here, their love for you is true...
Your daughters, their families, and your grandchildren too.

Your wife is here, supported by all...
You need not worry, we won't let her fall.

Her children are here also, a strong bond we have formed...
to strengthen, console, and keep the memories warmed.

Today is your day, and we will surely raise a toast...
in reflection, in honor, in loving remembrance most.

Your craftsmanship is unmatched, second to none...
The pride in your works, here, to be seen by everyone.

The legacy you leave behind, of hard work and determination...
still remains for your family to live by, every generation.

You have touched so many lives, this filled room is a testament...
Those moments will not fade from our minds, to our hearts they've made a commitment.

At this time, you no longer feel pain, no hunger, no thirst...
You've passed beyond the physical world, you've survived the worst.

So now, as we gather to say our final goodbye...
Richard, go ahead and do what you loved so much, and fly.

Goodbye.

[Shark Black]

Very Nice....
If that room is filled like you say he has nothing to worry about.


We can never know all things.... We all just go with what our own heart and mind says....

More and more the scientific facts do not support the bible.

So some have more faith against all reason.

and fear of dying is a strong thing....

[Fox]

raiderblack said:

More and more the scientific facts do not support the bible.

I think science does a lot to discredit the 'young earth theory'. But that only discredits some peoples opinions of the bible, not the bible it self, the bible is full of poetry and figurative speech, although I'm sure a lot of it is literal as well, discerning which is which is of course the tricky part.

There's a lot of interesting stuff out there, but there's also a lot of crap (relating to proving or disproving anything in the bible) .

[SethFWF]

Actually, it's only been just recently that science has turned their back on the bible...this after many years of finding that it was historically accurate. Also, many geological findings have supported to some degree the actual accounts. But between the Islamic Jihads and Bible thumpers trying to sanitize the world, science has done exactly what was foretold and are working very hard to 'blind the masses'. Intelligent man has a hard time dealing with the possibility that their intense efforts at explaining everything are getting nowhere essentially, pride and fear combined make it easier to convince themselves that there is no God and the Bible is pure fiction...rather than accept that they don't and won't know everything until it's presented to them by the designer. With all our technology and brilliant doctors and scientists, look at how little we know about our brains alone...not to mention the immense unknown of the universe.

I know this is touchy and a lot of you guys think it's all bunk, but what Jesus and his apostles wrote about our time is perfectly prophetic. It needs to be understood that the entire world has been under 'evils' thumb and therefore often sees what 'evil' wants it to. We're very easily deceived in our imperfect state.

But for the sake of arguement, let's say the Bible is completely fictional...does that change anything as it pertains to how we got here and where we're going? I may not have near the faith I do without the intense study of the book and watching over my lifetime the world falling into the state it has just as it was foretold, but I believe in my heart I would still be sure of a grand design and plan even if I never read a scripture or was religious in any sense of the word.

It would be much wiser for man to realize that his 'reasoning' skills are like those of an ant relative to what we could know, counting on our imperfect 'reason' to direct us and lead us to a better state has gotten us nowhere so far.

Seth

[BenMech]

As nice as it is to give a tribute to your family member, your underlying goal of the thread is to say "Believe in this ONE specific form, or suffer consequences" which I have a problem with.

You say "God" to, at least, IMPLY the Christian version.

If you had chosen to say "a force beyond our knowledge and means", I wouldn't be irritated.

Atheists believe in the absense of ANY deity system. That absolutism is as illogical to me as a full belief in one specific dogma of any shape or label.

See what I'm saying??

[SethFWF]

You completely misread my intentions then Ben, I wasn't saying that he even prayed or began to believe in a specific God. And I'm certainly not saying that anyone else should, it was simply an observation that I've made before(being so recent, this one prompted me to post) that often times, people who've never believed in God(or any higher power/diety) find it much easier to do so when their life is coming to an end.

It very well could be fear that causes this, but it seems that it's much easier to not be afraid when you're younger and say 'there is no God'.

I've never pushed my own beliefs here, other than explained them to a small degree in another discussion...so this thread is about...as you said, the overall belief or lack of in any higher entity and/or an after-life.

Sorry if it came across any other way...

Seth

[Shark Black]

benmech said:

As nice as it is to give a tribute to your family member, your underlying goal of the thread is to say "Believe in this ONE specific form, or suffer consequences" which I have a problem with.

You say "God" to, at least, IMPLY the Christian version.

If you had chosen to say "a force beyond our knowledge and means", I wouldn't be irritated.

Atheists believe in the absense of ANY deity system. That absolutism is as illogical to me as a full belief in one specific dogma of any shape or label.

See what I'm saying??

I be seeing what you be sayin'!

I will be humble in the fact that I will never know the absolute truth of how I became to exist.

To me, if this is the master plan, then it's seems like a strange plan. I will continue to put more faith in the natural than the supernatural, because it makes more sense to me. But how can anyone know what they don't know. I go with what I know, and people who say they know God exists are not telling the truth. They can hope or believe he may, but there is no empirical proof.

But there is a lot of evidence that support Darwin's theories.
Check out those finches on Galapagos!!

But if man is judged by any measure be it by a God or by man, it's how they treat each other.

So I do my best.... and let the chips fall where they may...

[SethFWF]

That's a good way to look at it, I can appreciate yours and Ben's view. The 100% atheists(like my father in law) take it to that 'I know for a fact there is no God' level...and not that I wish to speak ill of the dead, but that's beyond pompous and foolish.

While it's true that what we can see and touch is all we can know for 100% to exist, to look at the examples we were given and what has been historically proven from the Bible...and to study the prophecies and observe their correctness over history can give something a little more than faith. I don't want to get into a full blown debate again, but that's where I'm at.

And there are tons of holes in the evolutionary theory, I'm sure Andre and the guys who study this stuff could challenge me and then I'd have to go and look all that shit up again...

But undoubtedly, at some point the truth and full disclosure will come...frankly none to soon for me as I watch this planet and race crumble. Only hope I'm still around to see it.

Seth

[Shark Black]

sethfwf said:

While it's true that what we can see and touch is all we can know for 100% to exist, to look at the examples we were given and what has been historically proven from the Bible...and to study the prophecies and observe their correctness over history can give something a little more than faith. I don't want to get into a full blown debate again, but that's where I'm at.

Seth

Quite frankly, Revelations is written in sort of the same style that Nostradamus wrote his quatrains, very cryptic, very open to interpretation. Many have interpreted his prophecies as coming true too. Do you believe he has some phrophetic ability? I just have a hard time believing anything that old or older like the bible, their perspective was so much more uninformed than ours.

That is unless they had this supernatural connection with God... LOL

[Gonzalo el Silenciado]

I think Hunter S Thompson wrote Revelations in a previous life.

I believe the Bible, Koran, etc are all fiction, and that anyone who gets too gung-ho over any of these writings is a lunatic. But I also recognize that these texts have some very good ideas in them. "Thou shalt not commit murder," for instance.

I'm suddenly reminded of George Carlin's idea of taking away all the negative language in the Commandments as a way of lightening the religious mood. 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' thus becomes 'Thou shalt always remain faithful to the provider of thy nookie.' In all seriousness, I think it's a fabulous idea.

As for Darwinian theory, anyone that's ever bred animals - ranchers, for instance - can see evolution in pretty rapid action. Why anyone would relegate Charlie's ideas to 'theory' status and yet call Biblical writing the unmitigated truth is beyond me.

Even as an avowed (though not unreasonably so, I'd like to think) atheist, I'm not convinced anyone on their deathbed would really be able to fearlessly leap into the void. I'm sure my last words will be 'Lord, forgive my if I was wrong about you,' or something to that effect. I mean, I really would like to believe in an all-powerful, benevolent deity. But reason won't allow me to.

That said, would we have problems like the Israeli-Palestinian mess and the loopier Muslims who want Western Civilization destroyed if all these people were atheists? Or would they just find another excuse to hate? Even Yaser frickin Arafat admitted 'we're Semites too.'

Orphaned Land rules, and Mabool is an unbelievable album. Curses to you fuckers that saw them at ProgPower.

[SethFWF]

raiderblack said:

Quite frankly, Revelations is written in sort of the same style that Nostradamus wrote his quatrains, very cryptic, very open to interpretation. Many have interpreted his prophecies as coming true too. Do you believe he has some phrophetic ability? I just have a hard time believing anything that old or older like the bible, their perspective was so much more uninformed than ours.

That is unless they had this supernatural connection with God... LOL

It's not just the prophecies in Revelations or from Jesus in the Gospels about our day that are important. The Old Testament is important because it outlines the events leading up to Christs birth as well as many prophecies about our day. Chronology is very important and historians, geologists and so on have dug very deep into the writings, compared them to other historical writings at the time and found them to be correct. Not just the present time facts, but prophecies that were written hundreds of years prior were found to be correct when they did come to fruition within the Old Testament. Sometimes it was only something like the birth and rise of King David who was a forefather of Jesus, or other Kings who served God or didn't and led to important changes in how God dealt with us on earth...imparticular his chosen nation of Isreal at the time. Even those prophecies from back then about our time have been correct, cryptic or not...some of them are fairly easy to understand, and again chronologically correct.

Things like the end of the Gentile times, the beginning of the last days with numbers presented that with only a minor amount of research easily brings us to 1914 as the time when Satan was ousted permanently from the heavenly realm. This isn't just from religious people, many of your highly regarded scientists and historians who often times don't believe in any of this either cannot dispute that these writings ended up completely true to what they predicted.

Now, this won't mean much to those who give the Bible no credit at all...but for those who have studied and found many truths but still have doubts, it does say that all scripture is inspired of God himself. It's also very clear about false prophets throughout time and presently, so do I believe that Nostradomus or any other 'prophet' can actually fortell events? It's very possible, simply because of another important thing that all of mankind would do well to understand...that 'the entire world is lying in the power of the wicked one'...and that the majority of the world would be deceived by false religion, false prophets and false signs.

So there's definitely a fine line that either allows a person to seriously consider the Bible as more than just a fictional story despite whether or not they believe at all, or not give any of it a chance because it seems so absurd. I've known dozens and dozens of people who wouldn't give God or the Bible the time of day for a long time, and then chose to look into it just a little...only to be surprised at what they found when studied along with the intense research and scrutiny of man and science to help give proof of it's authenticity. Not that all of them by any means turned to the religion that I belonged to, or any other for that matter...but everything made more sense when a higher power/designer and plan for mankind entered into the equation.

In the way of a disclaimer, I'm only sayin' this stuff because a question was asked. If there's any interest at all, I don't mind discussing it...but it should not be considered 'preaching' at all, cuz I simply don't do that...

Seth

[SethFWF]

gonzothesilenced said:

Orphaned Land rules, and Mabool is an unbelievable album. Curses to you fuckers that saw them at ProgPower.

On that statement, we agree 1000%!!... Just can't seem to tire of that album at all, and the other ones are growing on me more and more too.

As far as the rest, well that's another story...but as with the other guys views, I respect them completely. One thing that amazes me about this board compared to many others is that we can discuss this type of thing without major disputes and everyone gettin' all butt-hurt... #cheers#

#teeter#

Seth

[BenMech]

gonzothesilenced said:

Orphaned Land rules, and Mabool is an unbelievable album. Curses to you fuckers that saw them at ProgPower.

;D

Nanny Nanny Noo Noo