Karl Rove- Evan Bayh

[Shark Black]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051013/ap_on_go_co/democrats_rove


Is there something inherently hypocritical when he says this after attacking Rove?...


The Indiana senator said Bush's strategists have divided the nation for short-term political gain.

"That kind of cynical strategy has worked well for Karl Rove and the people whose advice he takes, but it's not good for America and it's not the kind of politics I'm going to practice," Bayh said.

Uh excuse me You just did....hehe


Read it... It's comical to me...

It cracks me up when the democrats incessanlty attack and demonize the republicans and then call themselves angels...

"Oh I would never do thattttt..."

or should I give it a big Erkel Like "Did I Do Thatttt.."

LOL

[SethFWF]

While it can be comical, and also true...
the Republicans do the same exact thing.
You can watch the debate shows and
see them attack each other for the same
things they just said.

I do think the party who's not in power
generally does more whining and bitching,
so in this case it would be more true of the
Dems probably.

I've been wanting to read up more on
this issue before I say anything about it.
The only thing I've really heard is that this
Mier is quite the staunch Christian.

Seth

[Shark Black]

YEs taht is true that the Republicans get political... Of course they do. It's the system.

From what I've noticed, (understanding there is an exception to every rule) they just don't then in the same sentence say that they don't get political.

To call someone devisive ( a personal attack of sort) and then say that you aren't being devisive is a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

The Dems do it all the time. Listen to Howard Dean sometime, it's a constant with him.

That is all


Oh and being a Christian is an iherently evil thing these days I guess. (sarcasm alert)

To each his own.

[Sir Van Talvin]

Yeah, I hate that when there's a politician (almost always a Dem) screaming, "Hate! Divisiveness! Mean-spirited!" I just wanna say, "Hello? Look in the mirror!"

[SethFWF]

It's sounding to me like you guys follow
your party line a bit too much, if you were
to look at it from a state of non-commitment
to one side or the other...it would be obvious
that both parties play the blame game and
name calling game just as much as the other.

Humans are humans, pretending that one political
party is comprised of better humans...that act
more mature and are more intelligent, less corrupt,
less capable of lying to the American people...well,
that is to not understand the human state.

I watch all the political debate shows and I've
studied this little game they play with each
other and have figured out that they're all
a bunch of tools. The Dems are tree hugging,
civil rights(beyond what's reasonable) nuts
who bitch and cry a lot because
their party is falling apart and is not
in power currently. The Repubs are the
most conceited, arrogant and over the
top bunch I've ever seen...their pride and self
assuredness is mind numbing to watch
for someone like me who realizes the
absoluteness of history repeating itself and
how they are oblivious to the path they're
on(just watched "Alexander" last night, classic
example even if the movie wasn't all that great).

Take a step back some night and watch
Hannity and Colmes from a non partisan view.
Colmes is a total wuss who gets his ass
handed to him every night, his
views and the experts, analysts and
politicians that support him have their side
that they push and turn
around and mislead and distort...etc...

Then there's Hannity who truly believes
he is a super hero of humankind and that
a brave man is one who stands up for the
troops and gives concerts for
them and calls anyone who would be
against the war for whatever reason a pussy.
This is a guy who acts as if he's actually done
anything other than run his mouth and organize
rallies...and there's certainly nothing
wrong with supporting the troops the
way he does in that regard, but the guy is
pompous beyond belief. A man who stands up
for bravery and fighting for freedom and
yet can't come to work because he's afraid
of a female stalker...

And what about his favorite supporter on
the show, this blond nutjob who actually and
literally thinks she knows everything. She
is absolutely the most annoying person
on the planet right now, with that voice
and attitude of superiority over anyone who
doesn't think the way she and her party do.
Too bad, cuz she's not half bad looking..but the
second she opens her mouth, I
wanna put my fist
through the TV,
shove ice picks in my
ears and gouge
my eyes out!!! AAAAGGGHHHHHHH!!!

Wow, I think I blacked out for a moment
there... #beatup#

Anyhoo, just my observations for what
it's worth.

Seth

[SethFWF]

And as far as the Christian thing, there's
nothing wrong obviously with being one...
but it is more than obvious what Bush's
agenda is here. Why nominate someone
who isn't nearly as qualified as probably
hundreds of other possible candidates? Why
pick a friend right after the fiasco with the
FEMA guy?

Bush is only dividing the country more and
more, and I'm starting to think he doesn't
care...it's all about pushing his agenda and
not about the unification and compromise of
what the American people as a whole want and
need. Any comparisons to Nazism, Communism,
and Totalitarianism as extreme as they are...not
really that far off if you look at it as 'just a starting
point'.

Why would we as a country allow this religious
ideology and type of rule to even get a small
foothole? This kind of thinking needs to be squashed
before it ever gets going and gets out of hand. Are
we too confident in our gov't to think it could happen?
Since when has power and religion not gone to
peoples heads in a destructive way?

And yet I'm still trying to give Bush the benefit of
the doubt every time, the guy makes it very difficult
to believe in him though...and it's becoming evident
that most Americans are having a harder time. I
don't believe in the polls 100%, but I can see just
in the Bush supporters in my family and at work a
drop in confidence and a question as to whether
his decisions, prior and current are reasonable.

Seth

[Shark Black]

I'm not talking about the pundits, and I do not tow the republican party line by any means. I'm an agnostic, pro choice, pro gay rights, legalize drugs, gun control proponent. I just agree with the simple fact that we are at war against a brutal and capable enemy and we should be fighting it on all fronts. And I don't buy this demonization of President Bush, it's hogwash.

The Pundits like Hannity and Combs and Carville and Bennet can say whatever they want. They are not elected officials in charge of running our country.

If you look at it with non biased etes you will see that Democrats Attack Attack Attack Attack, and then accuse the Republicans of being devisive. It's hilarious.

There are few republican idiots like Santorum and the likes who do it, but it's not on the grand scale that the Democrats do... Thats just what I see. I think they do it to cozy up to the all the craazies on the left and their propensity for over the top demonstrations. I mean this is beyond cooky, it's just wrong, you've got to admit.

[SethFWF]

The pundits are one thing, but the politicians
who come on the shows and give regular
interviews on other shows act and say the
same things they do. I don't think it's absurd
for either party to accuse the other of
divisiveness, corruption, stupidity or any other
type of jab...simply because they both are. Is
it hypocritcal? Of course, but both parties are
equally involved. I've seen plenty of other Repubs
calling the lefties numerous names, they're not
beyond reproach.

Of course I agree statements like on that picture
are absurd, again though...both parties extreme
sides are out of their minds. The actual somewhat
reasonable left side on the war should not be
dismissed as wrong, who's to say who's absolutely
right on this issue? It can be said that it was ill-advised
and rushed and not necessary, which is my position...
right at another time with better planning? Maybe
so. No right wing person, politician, analyst,
pundit or otherwise can say that I am wrong.

This leads me to a couple questions that
again veer towards the philisophical, but
are valid I think. How exactly did the US get
the right to choose how the rest
of the worlds governments should be run?
Was it a God given right? The extreme right
wing who have the ear of this admin. bigtime
think so. Or was there a global assembly that
know one knows about that said it was
this countries right?

How about, when most of the countries
in that region do not want Democracy
anywhere near them...is it reasonable to force
one in a country right smack in the
middle of the hotbed of terrorism? I mean
really, who says we have the right to go to
the other side of the world, to a country that
we have no jurisdiction in...and tell
them they have to govern themselves
the way we say or we'll blow them off the
planet? Sounding familiar?

Whether you tow the party line or not,
I know a couple guys who couldn't care
less about the people in Iraq...
they're even to the point of racist on many issues,
but they won't budge on this war issue simply
because they were for it in the beginning,
they support Bush and the Repubs and they'll
go to their graves saying it was
right no matter what. And they sit there
and defend everything the Repubs say, no
matter how absurd. Same
way on the left side, and I'll never be
convinced that
one side is better than the other.

Humans deciding who or what is right or
wrong is not possible to a definite answer.
Following said humans and
believing what they say blindly leads to
the same inevitable conclusion that it has
with every major world power in history.

Seth

[Residue]

Garbage in/garbage out. The worst thing about the Bush Administration is that they have made people think that being Christian means the same thing for everyone else that it does for Bush. The second worst thing about the Bush Administration is that they have made people think that being Conservative means the same thing for everyone else that it does for Bush.

Boo. I want my country back.

[Shark Black]

Seth you said...

"How exactly did the US get
the right to choose how the rest
of the worlds governments should be run?"

We don't... The UN does and did in the case of Iraq.

Resolutions

687
688
707
715
949
1051
1060
1115
1134
1137
1154
1194
1205
1284
And last but not least 1441[/color]

So it is total crap that this is somehow Bushes fault. Saddam Hussein and his illegal brutal killing machine were a well known entity to the world. Everyone and I mean every one, the French the Russians Clinton, Kerry fucking everyone "knew they they had WMD" (that was the comman belief at the time).

We did not decide when a government is hostile to it's citizens or it's neighbors the UN does.

And yes I hate to say we have a moral commitment to help the oppressed, tortured murdered raped and starved people of the world. And at certain instances it takes extreme measures to fix it. And that's a long process, but I will tell you 20 years from now it will all of payed off for the US and the middle East.

And residue, sorry to say everything you say is bogus. How does the Bush administration say or even do what you say there. How does he make any Christian a different Christian. How does he make any conservative a different conservative. Bogus left wing propaganda. put the coolaid down.
You still wake up and do exactly whatever you want every single day, except now you get to do it in a safer place. No Olympic Bombing, No Oklahoma City Bombing, No Trade tower Bombing, No Columbine, no Waco, no shit.

[Fox]

sethfwf said:

How about, when most of the countries
in that region do not want Democracy
anywhere near them...is it reasonable to force
one in a country right smack in the
middle of the hotbed of terrorism? I mean
really, who says we have the right to go to
the other side of the world, to a country that
we have no jurisdiction in...and tell
them they have to govern themselves
the way we say or we'll blow them off the
planet? Sounding familiar?

Sounds like what the muslims do to everyone else.

[Shark Black]

duh!!


;D

[SethFWF]

Brett....

"We don't... The UN does and did in
the case of Iraq."

And the UN is a very trustworthy
organization now? Only the most corrupt
money laundering group on the planet and
they have no idea what they're doing or
why. They along with the rest of the world
apparantly knew there were WMDs too,
would have been great if anyone had
checked a little further to find out before
starting this little inconveniece called war.
But I don't think it would have mattered,
because even though that was the 'main
reason' to go to war...it quickly changed
to, "oh we're there to spread Democracy,
they obviously weren't a threat to us...
but that Dictator had to go". Well, we better
hurry up and finish there cuz there's a
couple hundred more countries that we
need to do the same in.

"And that's a long process, but I
will tell you 20 years from now it will
all of payed off for the US and the
middle East."

Nothing that any country is doing now is
going to pay off well in 20 years from now,
whether it's terrorism from the mid-east...
religious wars in another form, or any other
possible tyranny trying to take over the world,
it will always be there and will only get worse
as time goes on. I keep saying that optimism
is a nice thing as far as the betterment of the
human race goes, but hardly realistic. We've had
thousands of years to fix it and have only made
it worse.

Fox...

"Sounds like what the muslims do to
everyone else."

Not a good example to follow then. Let's
take care of our own for once and actually
protect ourselves.

Seth

[Shark Black]

Dr Seth you say,
"Nothing that any country is doing now is
going to pay off well in 20 years from now,
whether it's terrorism from the mid-east...
religious wars in another form, or any other
possible tyranny trying to take over the world,
it will always be there and will only get worse
as time goes on. I keep saying that optimism
is a nice thing as far as the betterment of the
human race goes, but hardly realistic. We've had
thousands of years to fix it and have only made
it worse"

This is an entirely false statement...

Things are much better.... Look at your history books...

20th Century.... 2 world wars, a few holocausts i.e. Cambodia, Germany, one huge cold war...

You're saying it's worse now?

It's just not true homey...

Smack Smack ;D hehe

And domestically, did you see the news yesterday? The murder rate is at a 40 year low in the US. Lowest rate since the 1960s...

I'm not being optimistic I'm looking at the facts and making my assessment.

I would suggest that you are being overly pessimistic.

[SethFWF]

You're not looking at the underlying
conditions, what's seething below the
surface. To ignore this and maintain any
confidence in the future of our race
(brought on by us only of course) is
the same as burying your head in the sand.

We have a bigger problem brewing now
than we did with the 2 World Wars and
the Cold War, just because we're tackling
one country in the 'war on terror' doesn't
mean we're winning it. We'll spend several
more years and countless billions of dollars
there to give them a Democracy while the
terrorists continue to multiply. Of course
we're working on other fronts of this war,
but I can't imagine anyone thinking we're
making that much progress in the big picture.
We've done virtually nothing to protect our
own borders and citizens, just because we
haven't had a terrorist attack here since 9/11
means nothing.

Then there's the human condition,
both the physical and mental are
deteriorating quickly. New diseases
constantly popping up and health care
certainly not helping anyone but the rich,
mentally people are relying on drugs far
more to help them cope...legal and illegal.
We have an entire generation of kids
whacked on drugs to 'make them behave'.

The murder rate being down is a lovely
statistic, where exactly is that happening?
There's nothing but murder after murder
in this city, cops being killed left and right...
babies mutilated, gangs killing each other
and innocents. Any drop in the overall rate
simply doesn't encompass what's happening
in the world, we still can't live in our bubble
called the US and pretend what's happening
out there isn't affecting us.

And of course the condition of the planet,
no not because the natural disasters lately
have been so big...it goes much further
than that. Depleted resources, wait till the
real wars over oil and energy in general start.
Pollution is only beginning to take it's toll and
the gov't couldn't give a shit. You live in the
Bay area right? But used to live around LA I
think? Over here is one of the next worse
cities to see and breathe that disgusting cloud
of poison, the more technology grows...as
nice and helpful as it is in our modern day,
the worse our air quality will get. I want to
meet the scientist that thinks he can solve
that problem.

This is not all gloom, doom and pessimism
for the sake of being pessimistic. It's simply
realistic when you look closely at the
conditions around us and more importantly
around the world. And back to the root of
the discussion, putting faith in any man or
group of men in a political sense is futile...the
gov'ts worldwide get more corrupt all the
time, try and find the good in them all you
want...but their bottom line won't change
for our betterment.

Seth