Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
|
Post by Sir Van Talvin on Aug 29, 2005 5:27:01 GMT -5
Could you be a little more specific? It's not like I could find any page titled "The Soviet Union Predicted to Fall before 2000". I got more stuff in my head and not enough time to type it out. I'll be back!
|
|
Joe-×
Simple Human http://www.fat
Posts: 50
|
Post by Joe-× on Aug 29, 2005 6:21:25 GMT -5
|
|
Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
|
Post by Shark Black on Aug 29, 2005 22:28:36 GMT -5
I knew it was just a matter of time before ya came and ransacked the Arena...
By the way I somehow got to and read your interviews of the PM people and almost pissed my pants I was laughing so hard.
|
|
Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
|
Post by Sir Van Talvin on Aug 31, 2005 19:21:57 GMT -5
I'm still musing! My brain doesn't work so quick and I don't often have the time to fully address some previous counterpoints. Like I said before, I'll be back!
BTW, Joex, I still need something specific from the book that predicted - however obtusely - the collapse of the Soviet Union before the year 2000 (as per my previous challenge). I couldn't find any reference to such from what I scanned.
|
|
Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
Posts: 368
|
Post by Fox on Sept 1, 2005 11:46:50 GMT -5
Well I'm glad you have such great incite to Abe's mind. But...
Your analysis is extremely shallow. Blacks were Americans, then they weren't, with no say of their own. Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness is written before self government. Abe was protecting the rights of those citizens.
By your logic, as soon as I don't like the law, all I have to do is declare myself I new nation, and I've done no wrong, surely you must be smarter than that Joe. You said it yourself, its right or wrong, no inbetween. Surely, you can see the greater good.
I don't think the Roman Empire was a particularly great idea but it took what 700 years or so to die off? That's a lot of generations to let waste.
Sure Hitler will just die off, we should've just capitulated and let him kill 12 million jews in the process.
Dumb.
|
|
Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
|
Post by Shark Black on Sept 1, 2005 14:32:04 GMT -5
joex speaking of Lincoln... Had he been a moral person who believed in the idea of human freedom, he would have let the south leave the voluntary union peacefully. He didn't. He wasn't. That's the fact of 1861. Later actions done by others after him can't undo or mitigate that wrong. This is hilarious.... Sticking up for the rights of blacks in the south to be oppressed by their masters... Now that's really moral isn't it. No one should ever come to the help of others or it's evil? Because it's neither right or wrong, because it's all stupid? When we see someone getting mugged on the street we shouldn't help because it would be evil to make a judgement call? The moral decision would be to let that person get mugged because the mugger needs to be free to mug? That's the logic I see in your argument. Joe you never cease to amaze me with your bizzare views and psychobabble. Very entertaining.
|
|
Joe-×
Simple Human http://www.fat
Posts: 50
|
Post by Joe-× on Sept 2, 2005 8:42:11 GMT -5
BTW, Joex, I still need something specific from the book that predicted - however obtusely - the collapse of the Soviet Union before the year 2000 (as per my previous challenge). I couldn't find any reference to such from what I scanned. There isn't anything that specific. I underestimated your obtusity. JOe
|
|
Joe-×
Simple Human http://www.fat
Posts: 50
|
Post by Joe-× on Sept 2, 2005 8:59:03 GMT -5
Just reading his words, not his mind. It's a web board; what do you expect. You get what you pay for. www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1862/may/lincoln-slavery.htm"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388. "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery." (March 4, 1861, - First Inaugural Address) "I am a little uneasy about the abolishment of slavery in this District of Columbia." ( March 24, 1862, - letter to Horace Greeley) "I will say, then, that I am not, nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races; that I am not nor ever been in favor of making voters of the free Negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, or having them to marry with white people. I will say in addition, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which, I suppose, will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality, and inasmuch as they cannot so live, that while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other white man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man." From the Lincoln / Douglas Debates of 1858. "What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." Springfield, Illinois on July 17, 1858. Your revisionist history makes Abe look like the good guy, but actual history isn't so clear on the subject. When your brain permits only these two possibilities, it is you who are dumb. Joe
|
|
Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
|
Post by Shark Black on Sept 2, 2005 10:50:03 GMT -5
And yet it led to the Emancipation Proclimation... Where he freed the slaves in the south.
"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom. "That the Executive will, on the first day of January aforesaid, by proclamation, designate the States and parts of States, if any, in which the people thereof, respectively, shall then be in rebellion against the United States; and the fact that any State, or the people thereof, shall on that day be, in good faith, represented in the Congress of the United States by members chosen thereto at elections wherein a majority of the qualified voters of such State shall have participated, shall, in the absence of strong countervailing testimony, be deemed conclusive evidence that such State, and the people thereof, are not then in rebellion against the United States." Now, therefore I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-in-Chief, of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed rebellion against the authority and government of the United States, and as a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion, do, on this first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and in accordance with my purpose so to do publicly proclaimed for the full period of one hundred days, from the day first above mentioned, order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States, the following, to wit:
Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued. And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons. And I hereby enjoin upon the people so declared to be free to abstain from all violence, unless in necessary self-defence; and I recommend to them that, in all cases when allowed, they labor faithfully for reasonable wages.
And I further declare and make known, that such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service. And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God.
In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed. Done at the City of Washington, this first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the eighty-seventh. By the President: ABRAHAM LINCOLN WILLIAM H. SEWARD, Secretary of State.
|
|
Joe-×
Simple Human http://www.fat
Posts: 50
|
Post by Joe-× on Sept 2, 2005 13:16:18 GMT -5
Read it again. Pay close attention to the words. Engage your cognitive capacities.
He freed slaves in the areas under rebellion. He did not free any slaves in any area he controlled. He lists the affected areas explicitly so that there's no doubt. Slaves in Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, Delaware, and the abominable West Virginia were not freed. Too bad for them. The document freed no slaves. It had no jurisdiction in the southern states until they were conquered, and, even then - like everthing else about Lincoln's war, was unconstitutional. It was a cynical and desperate political gimmick designed to keep England from helping the South. And it specifically stipulated that any state rejoining the union prior to 1/1/1863 could keep slavery just fine.
"We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free." Secretary of State William Seward (an abolitionist discontent with the document).
Joe
|
|
Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
|
Post by Shark Black on Sept 3, 2005 2:42:42 GMT -5
My Cognitive abilities are in tact. They were conquered. That was a different time and a different mindset. I don't care how you fucking spin it. He freed the the slaves in the south, and he set forth the momentum that freed all slaves. And givin the different time and the different mindset, it was HUGE... Goodnight now.
|
|
Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
Posts: 368
|
Post by Fox on Sept 3, 2005 13:11:49 GMT -5
Ok perhaps I assume wrong about Lincoln, my point otherwise remains valid. People's rights > state's rights.
I would've done the same thing, abliet for different reasons.
|
|
Sir Van Talvin
Monument http://www.fateswa
The Barbarian at the Ivory Gate
Posts: 460
|
Post by Sir Van Talvin on Sept 7, 2005 19:44:18 GMT -5
I still gotta get back to this one. Maybe I'll write a book.
|
|