himwe
Apparition
Posts: 17
|
Post by himwe on May 1, 2007 5:37:18 GMT -5
The U.S. version of an Iraq war may or may not be a quagmire, but whether you like it or not, the dictatorships and failed states of the Middle East and Africa are going to have to be dealt with eventually. You can complain about Bush and "the neocons" and whatever else all you want, and it won't change that fact.
|
|
Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
|
Post by Virtual Scott on May 1, 2007 13:45:39 GMT -5
"Dealt with" meaning what exactly? Shipping them some diluted neo-con version of democracy gift-wrapped for immediate consumption without any forethought or planning? Or some kind of diplomatic solution hidden within a hemogenous warcry? Not sure exactly what you mean but when the neo-cons are complaining about the neo-cons, I just don't think it's fringe lefties and communists who are a little ticked off. I think if one is going to bandy about the "failed states" term then one must delve into the hand of US imperialism and geo-political "influence" in that part of the world. Granted, it's not a pretty picture, especially in Africa, but I'd take a more multi-lateral diplomatic approach then convey of political frauds who pull the right strings and expect miracles from their own incompetence.
|
|
Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
|
Post by Virtual Scott on May 1, 2007 13:51:04 GMT -5
Modified due to server repost.
|
|
Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
|
Post by Virtual Scott on May 1, 2007 13:51:42 GMT -5
Modified due to server repost (or Karl Rove meddling/Diebold machine fraud!) ;-)
|
|
himwe
Apparition
Posts: 17
|
Post by himwe on May 1, 2007 16:27:20 GMT -5
"Dealt with" meaning what exactly? Shipping them some diluted neo-con version of democracy gift-wrapped for immediate consumption without any forethought or planning? Or some kind of diplomatic solution hidden within a hemogenous warcry? Not sure exactly what you mean but when the neo-cons are complaining about the neo-cons, I just don't think it's fringe lefties and communists who are a little ticked off. I think if one is going to bandy about the "failed states" term then one must delve into the hand of US imperialism and geo-political "influence" in that part of the world. Granted, it's not a pretty picture, especially in Africa, but I'd take a more multi-lateral diplomatic approach then convey of political frauds who pull the right strings and expect miracles from their own incompetence. You just don't get it, Scott. You're a LIBERAL. If you lived in the Middle East, YOU'D be the guy complaining about the religious leader promoting his tyrannical theocratic agenda. (Sound familiar?) For as much noise as you make about oil governing your own country's political agenda, try living somewhere where oil actually IS the only agenda. Like it or not, if you grew up over there, you'd be the pro-America one.
|
|
BenMech
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
The One You Warned Me Of
Posts: 1,470
|
Post by BenMech on May 1, 2007 23:30:58 GMT -5
I can live with the logic of your context, Ryan
|
|
Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
|
Post by Virtual Scott on May 2, 2007 17:56:31 GMT -5
I am a liberal. Am I an extremist or fringe leftwing commie? Definitely not. You are right, it's all relative, is basically what you are saying, and indeed it is. The same goes if this nation became occupied by an outside force, as well. Honestly, though, I'm not anti-American, by any stretch. I'd rather not debate semantics, but I'm damn proud to be an American. Now, that doesn't require me to support corrupt political ideologues and their agenda's but certainly, you've never caught be slandering this country as a whole.
|
|
himwe
Apparition
Posts: 17
|
Post by himwe on May 3, 2007 3:59:08 GMT -5
Sorry, Scott. You might have misunderstood me. I didn't say anything about your being extreme, fringe or anti-American.
Point is, if you're someone who values lower degrees of theocracy and oil-based politics then it seems strange to me that you would be so strongly opposed to what the US is doing in Iraq. Point is that there are more "Scott-type-concepts" behind Iraq policy than you seem to want to acknowledge.
|
|
Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
|
Post by Virtual Scott on May 3, 2007 16:33:10 GMT -5
No problem, bro. But I'm more opposed to US hegemony and empire-building and geo-political wars based upon resource exploitation, political footholdings, father/son revenge plots, decades-old rivalries, pre-Cold war mentality and fraudelent not to mention fallicious rationale when US soldiers are dying en masse for a corrupt regime (at home, that is) I don't deny there is more than meets the eye but the fact remains is the war has been mismanaged for years before it was finally "enacted".
|
|
Fox
Monument http://www.fateswa
Posts: 368
|
Post by Fox on May 4, 2007 10:58:38 GMT -5
Scott,
Here in America we have this thing called 'innocent until PROVEN guilty'. Which means the burden of proof is upon the accuser. So if you're going around making claims of 'resource exploitation' (has the US seized even one oil well?) or 'father/son revenge plots'. Please prove it. Or course the latter is night improvable, but why does one even make that assumption? Liberals have been saying a lot the last few years that has little to do with actual fact. To give you an idea, I'm not particularly fond of Bush. He's done a mediocre job in my opinion. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to gripe on Bush, I hear very few from the left or the media. Just non-senical ramblings or revenge plots or blood for oil and I sadly have to side with Bush.
|
|
Virtual Scott
Monument http://www.fateswa
At Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Learn to do Other Stuff Good Too
Posts: 291
|
Post by Virtual Scott on May 4, 2007 11:46:21 GMT -5
Resource exploitation... hey there's still time. Iraq was one of the largest oil producers before the war. Let's see how it plays out when contracts are divied up for the oil field production, how many US-based Energy interests are rewarded with significant contracts. And then there's the US "control" over the savings accounts containing oil profits from the Iraq government. I think there's still a distinct controversy over where exactly most of those funds went? But overall, I wasn't refering to Iraq, in that statement, but globally. Isn't energy resources the biggest reason the US government become emboiled in Middle Eastern affairs decades ago? If I'm not mistaken there's been plenty of talk amongst the heirarchy of top level neo-cons regarding early planning for an Iraq invasion. Otherwise, you are right, you can't prove the "vengence" theory without a smoking gun (ie: tape recorder or some email from the archives) but it's certainly a likely possibility considering talk amongst the PFNAC crowd
|
|
himwe
Apparition
Posts: 17
|
Post by himwe on May 4, 2007 16:29:08 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to get involved in pure speculation. I will say this, however - if you think it's a good thing to privatize an oil field, then it's a little disingenuous to accuse anyone who buys a piece of it of "exploitation." Either you think oil fields should be privately owned and managed, or you think they should be nationalized.
FYI, over 80% of the world's oil is controlled by national governments, not private companies. That's an important fact to keep in mind when you start talking about the extractive industry.
|
|
Shark Black
At Fates Hands http://www.fat
AKA Raiderblack
Posts: 1,352
|
Post by Shark Black on May 11, 2007 16:42:11 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by wowposter on Oct 29, 2008 6:16:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by wowposter on Nov 3, 2008 21:20:33 GMT -5
|
|